Rock River or Bushmaster ???

[DD214]

Please forgive my AR ignorance, but I don't know much about them, other than shooting a few of the M versions in the Navy. I've been meaning to pick one up for a while now, and I think it is about time. I was going to get a Bushmaster, but this thread has convinced me of the merits of the Rock River. Now I just need to figure out which configuration will be best. I want an M-4 style weapon, so I've narrowed it down to the Entry Tactical or the Tactical CAR A4. The only visual difference that I noticed between the two is that the Entry Tactical has an R-4 barrel profile. Since I won't be mounting a grenade launcher, what is the purpose of the R-4 barrel? Is it merely cosmetic? The other question is which barrel to choose. I see my choices are Chrome-Moly 1:9, Chrome Lined 1:9, Chrome Lined Lightweight 1:9, or Chrome Lined Lightweight 1:7. Which is recommended? I'll probably use the rifle for nothing more than pleasure shooting, and it will probably see a lot of use. Any tips are appreciated!

 

[AKbythebay]

Please forgive my AR ignorance, but I don't know much about them, other than shooting a few of the M versions in the Navy. I've been meaning to pick one up for a while now, and I think it is about time. I was going to get a Bushmaster, but this thread has convinced me of the merits of the Rock River. Now I just need to figure out which configuration will be best. I want an M-4 style weapon, so I've narrowed it down to the Entry Tactical or the Tactical CAR A4. The only visual difference that I noticed between the two is that the Entry Tactical has an R-4 barrel profile. Since I won't be mounting a grenade launcher, what is the purpose of the R-4 barrel? Is it merely cosmetic? The other question is which barrel to choose. I see my choices are Chrome-Moly 1:9, Chrome Lined 1:9, Chrome Lined Lightweight 1:9, or Chrome Lined Lightweight 1:7. Which is recommended? I'll probably use the rifle for nothing more than pleasure shooting, and it will probably see a lot of use. Any tips are appreciated!

Wow, tough questions. I'm a newbie to this too but I think I know some of this stuff. The Entry Tactical uses a heavy barrel (hbar) as opposed to the CAR A4. I didn't know this until yesterday, but the heavy barreled AR's are not subject to the $10 MSP background check and 7 day wait. For some reason the HBAR AR's are treated like any other non "assault" rifle. So if nothing else, the Entry Tactical will save you 7 days and $10. I think it looks better too. As far as what if any shooting advantages it has, I can't answer that.

From everything I've read, the 1:9 twist is preferable for plinkers like us. It's more of a jack-of-all-trades barrel than the 1:7. I know crome lined barrels are the way to go, but I'm not sure what the difference between chrome molly and chrome lined is.

By the way, the RRA comes with three additional features the Bushmaster does not ... the hogue grips, two stage match trigger, and side sling clip. You could get all that for the Bush but it would add up to over $100 probably. Add that to the fact that the RRA is a little cheaper than the Bush and I think it's a better deal. Virtually every dealer I talked to recommended the Rocks over the Bushs, but either one is excellent.

 

[DD214]

The Entry Tactical uses a heavy barrel (hbar) as opposed to the CAR A4. I didn't know this until yesterday, but the heavy barreled AR's are not subject to the $10 MSP background check and 7 day wait. For some reason the HBAR AR's are treated like any other non "assault" rifle. So if nothing else, the Entry Tactical will save you 7 days and $10. I think it looks better too. As far as what if any shooting advantages it has, I can't answer that.

Thanks for the info. I am a little confused though. If I compare the two on the Rock River website, the tactical entry is listed at 7.5lbs, 36inches, and the CAR A4 is listed at 7.5lbs, 36inches. Since they are exactly the same length and weight, does that mean that the tactical entry is front heavy? If that is the case, what did they remove from the upper/lower to make it lighter in the back so that the weights remain the same? I agree that the R-4 barrel looks better. Yep, I'm a noob.

 

[AKbythebay]

Thanks for the info. I am a little confused though. If I compare the two on the Rock River website, the tactical entry is listed at 7.5lbs, 36inches, and the CAR A4 is listed at 7.5lbs, 36inches. Since they are exactly the same length and weight, does that mean that the tactical entry is front heavy? If that is the case, what did they remove from the upper/lower to make it lighter in the back so that the weights remain the same? I agree that the R-4 barrel looks better. Yep, I'm a noob.

It might just have to do with a appearance, or thickness of the barrels. If you compare both pics, the Entry Tactical appears beefier towards the muzzle.

When I was at the store buying mine I asked about why I didn't have to pay the $10 MSP fee and they said it was due to the HBAR heavy barrel. When I asked what type of AR would I have to pay the $10 on he showed me an identical looking AR with the exception that the barrel looked narrower.

So as best as I can tell, it just relates to the size of the barrel and possibly not the weight. I'm sure someone on this site knows a lot more than both of us and can clear this up.

 

[Norton]

There's been some real confusion, either accidental or deliberate, regarding what actually constitutes and HBAR as it applies to MD law.

The HBAR exception, as it states in the MD law (as I recall) says specifically Colt HBAR. My understanding of what is an HBAR is this:

http://www.coltsmfg.com/cmci/MTCompHBAR.asp

Dealers then stretched the definition to include the Bushmaster rifle which basically looks identical to this.

Lately several dealers have taken to including M4geries with barrels that are heavy under the handguards as being HBARs. I respectfully disagree with that and walked out on two dealers who tried to convince me otherwise. There was no way that anyone could convince me that my Entry Tactical is an HBAR rifle and I was not going to take the chance of being stung over it.

 

[DD214]

There was no way that anyone could convince me that my Entry Tactical is an HBAR rifle and I was not going to take the chance of being stung over it.

Wouldn't it be the dealer who got stung? It seems that the dealer would be the one who would be held accountable for ensuring that the proper procedures are followed, as most consumers have no idea about what is required by MD law. Of course this is Maryland...

 

[Norton]

Wouldn't it be the dealer who got stung? It seems that the dealer would be the one who would be held accountable for ensuring that the proper procedures are followed, as most consumers have no idea about what is required by MD law. Of course this is Maryland...

I agree with you in principle, but like you say.....MD being MD and all, it's US that they would come after once they got done with the dealer.

 

[JeepDriver]

All RRA's are pistol paperwork including their National Match rifles. They do not have HBar engraved/stamped on the gun or barrel.

Any dealer that sells them as cash and carry is violating Maryland Law.

I wish that wasn't the case, I'd love to have an off the books RRA, but that ain't happening here in Maryland

 

[Norton]

All RRA's are pistol paperwork including their National Match rifles. They do not have HBar engraved/stamped on the gun or barrel.

Any dealer that sells them as cash and carry is violating Maryland Law.

I wish that wasn't the case, I'd love to have an off the books RRA, but that ain't happening here in Maryland

....and ladies and gentlemen, this is why I go to Continental to shop.

 

[jpk1md]

Both Scotts Gunsmithing and The Armory have stated that the MSP has indicated that ANY AR-15 with a Heavy Barrel fits the exception. I would argue in favor of that as being true since all you have to do is apply the "copycat" clause of the law to make that true.

FWIW Fulton Armory does the same thing.

 

[Norton]

I have no doubts that the MSP said so, as both Scott and Hal are straight shooters (pardon the analogy) and the guys at MSP usually take the loosest of interpretations of the law when they are able.

The real issue would be what the AG's office says. They are the ones that will be prosecuting the dealers and owners and we know where AG Gansler stands on the subject of us peons owning guns.

 

[DD214]

Now I just need to figure out where to buy an RR Entry Tactical. I'm in Southern MD and I'd like to keep the drive reasonable since I will have to make it twice. I will not buy from my local gun store, The Tackle Box. They suck.

By the way, The Tackle Box was robbed during business hours a couple of weeks ago. The perpetrators smashed the glass case and took at least one handgun. It was later used during a botched robbery attempt to murder some poor guy who was leaving his apartment for work. There is no excuse for a gun store to be robbed during business hours. The criminals should have left in a coroner's van, not with a pocket full of guns. At least they were caught a couple of days ago. The problem is this - when I bought my last Glock from them (never again), the guy working the counter told me that he was against CCW in MD because it would be "like the wild west". Yes, the guy selling me the gun said this. I was in shock. Well, I bet he wishes that he was packing on the day he was robbed...

Link: http://www.stmarystoday.com/News/Murder_arrest.html

 

[Norton]

The Armory had some carbines in stock the other day. I'm not sure if they were RRA or not, though I know he had at least one entry tactical carbine upper there.

 

[Chris]

ROCK RIVER is an incredible rifle out of the box. Mine shoots 100X beter then I ever will. It's nice to work with a quality tool, fit and finish. Most of the members of our shooting team have Rock Rivers. But I will say that my Colt H-Bar is a good second choice.

 

[AKbythebay]

....and ladies and gentlemen, this is why I go to Continental to shop.

....and ladies and gentlemen, this is why I go to The Armory to shop

Applying a handgun waiting period and $10 background check to a rifle is complete bullsh!t to start with! If I can avoid having big brother in Annapolis keeping track of every weapon I own, that's good with me.

If The Armory and other shops spoke to MSP and got their okay than I have no problem with it. Until or unless they change the law, we have not done anything wrong.

I applaud The Armory for not making us go through any more unnecessary cost and paperwork then we are already forced to do in this socialist state. They did the right thing and went to the State Police for clarification.

 

[AKbythebay]

Now I just need to figure out where to buy an RR Entry Tactical. I'm in Southern MD and I'd like to keep the drive reasonable since I will have to make it twice. I will not buy from my local gun store, The Tackle Box. They suck.

I got my Entry Tactical from The Armory just a few days ago. I know for a fact they had at least one other identical Entry Tactical in stock - they got mine from the back of the shop. The one out on the floor should still be there. Call or email Hal, he was very helpful to me.

By the way, the RRA's they stock have the standard A2 detachable handle, not the "tactical detachable carry handle" that most places have. I prefered the more classic AR handle, but you may feel otherwise. Just and FYI before you drive up there

Oh, and like I said one post up, you should only have to make the drive ONCE

 

[Norton]

....and ladies and gentlemen, this is why I go to The Armory to shop

Applying a handgun waiting period and $10 background check to a rifle is complete bullsh!t to start with! If I can avoid having big brother in Annapolis keeping track of every weapon I own, that's good with me.

If The Armory and other shops spoke to MSP and got their okay than I have no problem with it. Until or unless they change the law, we have not done anything wrong.

I applaud The Armory for not making us go through any more unnecessary cost and paperwork then we are already forced to do in this socialist state. They did the right thing and went to the State Police for clarification.

Again, don't get me wrong....I like Hal and his shop. All I'm saying is that the MSP is not the final law on this matter and depending on what day you call and who you talk to, you are very likely to get two different answers.

It's already stretch to apply the "HBAR" designation to any 20" A2 stocked rifle such as the Bushmaster because the law specifically states "Colt HBAR" and as JeepDriver (who is an FFL designee) points out only the Colt rifle is stamped as HBAR.

I agree with you that it's BS to have one AR be "regulated" and others not be. I would love for that law to go away.

I believe that both the Armory and Christian Soldier are acting on the good faith of the best information that they have and in accordance with what they believe is correct. I just think that they are wrong and are setting themselves for some very serious scrutiny with potentially dangerous consequences for them and their customers.

If you're comfortable with that risk, by all means have at it. I wish you no ill will, but given the political environment of the state these days, I think that it is incumbent on all of us to be as cautious as possible when trying to navigate the labyrinth gun laws in this state.

If the MSP puts it on paper, and gets the AG's office to concur in writing, I will HAPPILY lay out the money and, in fact, give it to Hal. However, I am not willing to chance getting put into a small cell with a very large man over a phone call with "somebody" at MSP.

 

[AKbythebay]

Again, don't get me wrong....I like Hal and his shop. All I'm saying is that the MSP is not the final law on this matter and depending on what day you call and who you talk to, you are very likely to get two different answers.

It's already stretch to apply the "HBAR" designation to any 20" A2 stocked rifle such as the Bushmaster because the law specifically states "Colt HBAR" and as JeepDriver (who is an FFL designee) points out only the Colt rifle is stamped as HBAR.

I agree with you that it's BS to have one AR be "regulated" and others not be. I would love for that law to go away.

I believe that both the Armory and Christian Soldier are acting on the good faith of the best information that they have and in accordance with what they believe is correct. I just think that they are wrong and are setting themselves for some very serious scrutiny with potentially dangerous consequences for them and their customers.

If you're comfortable with that risk, by all means have at it. I wish you no ill will, but given the political environment of the state these days, I think that it is incumbent on all of us to be as cautious as possible when trying to navigate the labyrinth gun laws in this state.

If the MSP puts it on paper, and gets the AG's office to concur in writing, I will HAPPILY lay out the money and, in fact, give it to Hal. However, I am not willing to chance getting put into a small cell with a very large man over a phone call with "somebody" at MSP.

Excellent points and well stated. I still doubt that any investigation would ever find it's way to the actual purchasers, but who knows. Anything is possible. I think the absolute worst thing that could happen is the MSP would get in touch with anyone who purchased and AR under these circumstances and ask that we go through a background check and register our weapons. I really doubt that this would happen though.

 

[DD214]

If one were to accept the fact that these copycat "HBAR" ARs are not controlled, wouldn't it be better to drive to VA to get one at a much better price than in MD?

My other question would be what would happen if the AWB passes and all ARs have to be registered? If you register your gun with the MSP and they see that no background check was performed at the time of purchase, couldn't they possibly deny registration and confiscate the gun? I'm kind of leaning towards AKbythebay's viewpoint, as I think it would be the dealer who got smacked if it came down to it. But I don't want to run into trouble in any kind of registration scenario.

 

[Norton]

Another option would be to buy the HBAR model (On Target in Severn has several) and then simply buy or build the carbine upper that you want. You'd basically have two rifles.