Red Flag info mtg Edgewater AAPD

[Doug Hile]

Was there anything of substance presented at this meeting? What was your take on it?

 

[dblas]

Is there a way to remove a law?
Are we discussing this for no real possible recourse? Hell even our POTUS says “I like taking the guns first”. #redirectedfrustration

3Paul10, can you fact check my posts over in the NRA thread? :sarcasm

Thanks to the mods for letting this thread live on.

Yep, submit a bill in Annapolis to remove the entire law from the Annotated Code.

Or sue the local police/county/state over an Unconstitutional act, after an ERPO has been served against you.

 

[Occam]

If a crime has been committed (or alleged), a standard criminal investigation and possibly arrest and prosecution take place. A red flag gun-stripping warrant is executed in the absence of a crime, but instead because someone has told a judge that somebody is scary.

You seem to be suggesting that there’s no way such a warrant would be issued if the only evidence of scariness was one person’s (say, a sister-in-law’s) alarming say-so. But we already have an example of essentially just that happening (and ending up in death, despite other family members saying he wasn’t dangerous).

 

[dblas]

If a crime has been committed (or alleged), a standard criminal investigation and possibly arrest and prosecution take place. A red flag gun-stripping warrant is executed in the absence of a crime, but instead because someone has told a judge that somebody is scary.

You seem to be suggesting that there’s no way such a warrant would be issued if the only evidence of scariness was one person’s (say, a sister-in-law’s) alarming say-so. But we already have an example of essentially just that happening (and ending up in death, despite other family members saying he wasn’t dangerous).

You are guessing that the sister in law went to the police and asked for the ERPO. I believe she went and asked for one from a magistrate and received one, the police were serving it. So the sister in law had to provide enough information to convince the magistrate to sign off on an interim ERPO (Per the requirements set forth in the law).

So, your comment above is apples and oranges since she did not go to the police but actually followed the law and went to a magistrate and provided the needed information to convince a magistrate. Do you really think a magistrate or a judge would issue an ERPO on heresay?

 

[Doug Hile]

I appreciate you going to the meeting, and explaining the details of this law,,, however,,, it seems to fly in the face of the One over-riding statute,, and THAT is the 2A. SHALL NOT INFRINGE. It still seems to allow Madame DeFarge to denounce anyone to a sympathetic LEO, who will then go through all the "proper" motions before executing the person to whom this allegation is directed.

 

[willtill]

I appreciate you going to the meeting, and explaining the details of this law,,, however,,, it seems to fly in the face of the One over-riding statute,, and THAT is the 2A. SHALL NOT INFRINGE. It still seems to allow Madame DeFarge to denounce anyone to a sympathetic LEO, who will then go through all the "proper" motions before executing the person to whom this allegation is directed.

SHALL NOT INFRINGE

Fixate on that all you want. Present day Magistrates, Judges, Commissioners, MD legislative body (in it's majority), with follow on court proceedings have thrown that decree to the wayside; as it was embedded in the COTUS in it's original intent.

It is the reality of the day. Our day.

Fight it on the present day legal battlefield that has been afforded to you.

 

[fabsroman]

Was there anything of substance presented at this meeting? What was your take on it?

The OP already gave a synopsis of what was said at the meeting. Search for his responses in this thread and you will find it.

 

[Doug Hile]

I have been reading all the back and forths of his thread with interest. I see this Red Flag mess has just come on the public, full blown, without any seeming discussion or debate. It strikes me as the closest example of GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT ever foisted upon America. This, coupled with the erosion of the 2A to the point of non-existence is greatly disturbing me. "Shall Not Be Infringed" has BEEN INFRINGED by Md, and the rest of the Country. How can it be, that the Constitution as well as most of the rest of the Laws of the Land, can be ignored? I don't want to be an Alarmist,, but, what I am seeing is Alarming,, and I am doubly Alarmed that no one else seems to be.

 

[Bob A]

There was plenty of discussion at the time, but the MD GA did not care to hear it. Hogan was running desperately for re-election, and he sold us out to kiss up to the Mothers Demanding. The GA, fond as they are of Bloomberg cash, didn't care to hear about how gun owners were made into a whole new criminal class in their haste to dance to the DNC tune and keep those re-election funds flowing.

Don't think for a minute that people are not Alarmed. Don't think for a moment that we in MD have failed to notice our infringement.

Be aware, however, that MD is not the USA. Take heart in the fact that 42 states have become Shall Issue or Constitutional Carry states; it's just that we're Special here, and in CA and NJ. Most of our legislators ride the Short Bus to work.

(It's of interest to me to have noticed how many of our legislators are in fact physically diminutive. I suspect that plays a great part in their opportunity to bully the people who disagree with them. I figure it's payback from the days of their childhood. But I'm not a psychiatrist, so maybe they just have smaller parts than most, and are trying to compensate.)

 

[Stoveman]

(It's of interest to me to n\have noticed how many of our legislators are in fact physically diminutive. I suspect that plays a great part in their opportunity to bully the people who disagree with them. I figure it's payback from the days of their childhood. But I'm not a psychiatrist, so maybe they just have smaller parts than most, and are trying to compensate.)

 

[fred2207]

You are guessing that the sister in law went to the police and asked for the ERPO. I believe she went and asked for one from a magistrate and received one, the police were serving it. So the sister in law had to provide enough information to convince the magistrate to sign off on an interim ERPO (Per the requirements set forth in the law).

So, your comment above is apples and oranges since she did not go to the police but actually followed the law and went to a magistrate and provided the needed information to convince a magistrate. Do you really think a magistrate or a judge would issue an ERPO on heresay?

In my book and as I understand due process, here say evidence was exactly all the magistrate used to make a decision. Who corroborated the evidence she presented. Where is the opportunity to see his accuser in court, before the fact? This law is unconstitutional from the git-go. Property was taken along with a life, without due process. Some folks have been so well indoctrinated in this state, I don't see how they can be call themselves conservative. All you have to look at is Larry Long Shanks. How he believes he has a chance at being the Republican POTAS nominee, is laughable.

 

[daggo66]

In my book and as I understand due process, here say evidence was exactly all the magistrate used to make a decision. Who corroborated the evidence she presented. Where is the opportunity to see his accuser in court, before the fact? This law is unconstitutional from the git-go. Property was taken along with a life, without due process. Some folks have been so well indoctrinated in this state, I don't see how they can be call themselves conservative. All you have to look at is Larry Long Shanks. How he believes he has a chance at being the Republican POTAS nominee, is laughable.

That's the way all protective orders work. Anyone can go to the commissioner's office 24/7.

 

[daggo66]

There was plenty of discussion at the time, but the MD GA did not care to hear it. Hogan was running desperately for re-election, and he sold us out to kiss up to the Mothers Demanding. The GA, fond as they are of Bloomberg cash, didn't care to hear about how gun owners were made into a whole new criminal class in their haste to dance to the DNC tune and keep those re-election funds flowing.

Don't think for a minute that people are not Alarmed. Don't think for a moment that we in MD have failed to notice our infringement.

Be aware, however, that MD is not the USA. Take heart in the fact that 42 states have become Shall Issue or Constitutional Carry states; it's just that we're Special here, and in CA and NJ. Most of our legislators ride the Short Bus to work.

(It's of interest to me to n\have noticed how many of our legislators are in fact physically diminutive. I suspect that plays a great part in their opportunity to bully the people who disagree with them. I figure it's payback from the days of their childhood. But I'm not a psychiatrist, so maybe they just have smaller parts than most, and are trying to compensate.)

Just about all of our supposed 2A supporting Republican delegates were 100% behind this and claimed no knowledge of dissent by the 2A community until several of us went apeshit calling them out and they started backpedaling with all their might.

 

[fabsroman]

There was plenty of discussion at the time, but the MD GA did not care to hear it. Hogan was running desperately for re-election, and he sold us out to kiss up to the Mothers Demanding. The GA, fond as they are of Bloomberg cash, didn't care to hear about how gun owners were made into a whole new criminal class in their haste to dance to the DNC tune and keep those re-election funds flowing.

Don't think for a minute that people are not Alarmed. Don't think for a moment that we in MD have failed to notice our infringement.

Be aware, however, that MD is not the USA. Take heart in the fact that 42 states have become Shall Issue or Constitutional Carry states; it's just that we're Special here, and in CA and NJ. Most of our legislators ride the Short Bus to work.

(It's of interest to me to n\have noticed how many of our legislators are in fact physically diminutive. I suspect that plays a great part in their opportunity to bully the people who disagree with them. I figure it's payback from the days of their childhood. But I'm not a psychiatrist, so maybe they just have smaller parts than most, and are trying to compensate.)

I was somewhat with you until that very last paragraph. Me, I find "The taller they are, the harder they fall."

If these legislators are "diminutive" in size, what makes you think they do not wish to CCW or understand how somebody their size would NEED to CCW, especially if they are diminutive, fat, and slow. I mean, if anybody would understand the need to CCW, it would be a tiny person, with small other small diminutive body parts, that has been bullied their entire life.

The last paragraph loses your credibility for you. Even more so since small Zirkin did not "bully" the 2A crowd this year, but the Moms. Then again, maybe it is how I think it is. Zirkin wanted to go back home and figure out what would get him re-elected versus passing something right now when he was hearing from both sides in his district and unsure about whether the bills were supported or not in his district.

FSA2013 was preceded by the Sandy Hook elementary school shooting

ERPO and Rapid Fire Trigger Device statutes were preceded by the high school shooting at Parkland, Florida and the Vegas shooting

No big shooting during this legislative session.

I guess we can all speculate as to why the legislators do what they do. My speculation is that they do it to get re-elected. I might be completely off base though and you might be right, diminutive body parts.

 

[Not_an_outlaw]

(It's of interest to me to n\have noticed how many of our legislators are in fact physically diminutive. I suspect that plays a great part in their opportunity to bully the people who disagree with them. I figure it's payback from the days of their childhood. But I'm not a psychiatrist, so maybe they just have smaller parts than most, and are trying to compensate.)

I agree and that is an interesting observation. One look at dblas and they are going to run to their safe space.

There are examples of no due process. I have think sobriety checks are a good example.

 

[fred2207]

That's the way all protective orders work. Anyone can go to the commissioner's office 24/7.

I know how it works...

 

[pcfixer]

http://www.simplefactsplainarguments.com/2013/02/the-revolutionary-war-began-with-gun.html and so it began...…

Realizing that it would be impossible to enforce the new laws on a well-armed populace with only 2000 troops in Boston. Gage decided to send men to Charlestown to capture the powderhouse - an important building where the members of a community would store their gunpowder to keep the volatile explosive away from their homes. The British seized hundreds of barrels of gunpowder, provoking over 20,000 militiamen from the surrounding areas to start marching toward Boston (but dispersed upon learning that there was no fighting in the city).

Soon after, General Gage began warrantless searches and seizures of firearms and ammunition throughout Boston. The Boston Gazette reported that of all of Gage's policies, "what most irritated the People" was "seizing their Arms and Ammunition." To reduce the supply of guns in America, on October 19, 1774, the British started an arms embargo of America that required British subjects to have a permit to export guns and ammo to America, while simply not issuing any such permits.

In December of 1774, New Hampshire militiamen pre-emptively captured Fort William and Mary, near Portsmouth, and all the arms stores in it, upon learning that the British had sent two warships to do the same.

As a result of the outrage over the arms embargo and other gun control measures, many Americans started to form militias that were independent of the British government.

Suddenly, it happened. On April 19, 1775, 700 British Redcoats under Major Pitcairn left the city of Boston with the objective of seizing stores of American weapons at Lexington and Concord. Paul Revere warned the militias of the approaching British troops, and 200 men, aged from 16 to 60, were gathered to meet the British at Lexington. The Americans were quickly beaten, and the British advanced to Concord where the they believed the local Patriots kept most of their arms (including 2 cannons).

 

[BeoBill]

What many don't know is that we already have these protections in place for a person who one believe's is a danger to themselves or others, suicide or whatever the mental danger. As a police officer many years ago I enforced this on several occasions and it was always based on the complainant's report. We would receive the complaint or report, then take the defendant before a magistrate or judge for evaluation. If the judge finds the complaint credible they order the defendant to a 90 day mental evaluation. Thats it in a nut shell. These RPOs are not necessary they are only a cunningly devised scheme to go after the firearms period. Only the ignorant or antigun grabbers wouldn't see it that way because they are biased.

Not only are they biased, it gains them and the co-sponsors "street cred" with the Gun Grabber Lobby (i.e., Bloomberg, et. al.) which is useful for furthering their political career and (more importantly for them) attracting BIG "campaign contribution$$$$$$" from the Lobby during the next election cycle.

If there was nothing in it for them PERSONALLY there would be no laws like this.

 

[BeoBill]

You are guessing that the sister in law went to the police and asked for the ERPO. I believe she went and asked for one from a magistrate and received one, the police were serving it. So the sister in law had to provide enough information to convince the magistrate to sign off on an interim ERPO (Per the requirements set forth in the law).

So, your comment above is apples and oranges since she did not go to the police but actually followed the law and went to a magistrate and provided the needed information to convince a magistrate. Do you really think a magistrate or a judge would issue an ERPO on heresay?

I believe the subject of ERPO was brought up by the officers responding to an earlier complaint by the relative. She then followed through via offering her opinion to the officer. Either way, to answer your question: Yes. This is Maryland, and judges are essentially political animals. (See "Judicial Activism")

 

[ironpony]

No opinion, well nothing can be done, just for your entertainment,

In Maryland, the courts reviewed 302 petitions for a gun removal order in the first three months of the state's law; the petition was granted in 148 cases (about half the time). About 60% of petitions were filed by family or household members, one petition was filed by a healthcare worker, and the rest were filed by police.[31] In November 2018, a Maryland man was killed by Anne Arundel County police officers serving a removal order after refusing to surrender his firearms; police said that there was a struggle over the gun and a shot was fired before officers fatally shot the man.[32]

wikipedia