Recoil Management Breakthrough!

[axshon]

So I had a breakthrough in my personal LR training on Sunday at AGC. I've been struggling forever with recoil management on my 5R in .308. Regardless of my body position and attempts to load my bipod I was always finding myself 10+ mils to the left of my target after every shot. I tried changing my body position, taking pictures of myself in position etc to no avail. Then I saw a fella at AGC with one of the new Midway mats that had a 'preload strip' of canvas that you can hook your bipod into. It seemed like a good idea.

So not having the desire to order another mat I took a couple pieces of wood and made a little L-shaped platform for my bipod and tied it to the eyelets on my shooting mat. I can tighten or loosen either side to change the angle. That allows me to preload into something with less give than the ground. I can tilt the rifle up a bit, get into position and then as I lay down I cam right into it.

Next, I found that both my rear bag options were too low with the extra 1/2" of height provided by my preload helper. So I grabbed a piece of drywall from the car about 2' long and 1' wide and put it under my mat to raise up the rear of my rifle without adding any ridges to work around in my shooting position.

Finally, I was able to maintain a perfect natural point of aim behind the rifle but I was still skipping it to the left about 5 mils on every shot. So I tried moving my body (by shifting my hips) in both directions and taking a few shots at every position. Turns out moving to the LEFT actually did the trick. I really felt like I was angling away from the target but I found that after every shot I was still dead center on the target. It was actually stable enough that I could watch the impact on the target and in the berm! First. time. ever.

Now I just need to repeat that performance a few hundred times to commit it to muscle memory...

 

[OrbitalEllipses]

Target re-acquisition is probably the most frustrating part of shooting my .308 rifle.

 

[outrider58]

I can solve the extra 1/2'' of height problem. Eat more bacon.

 

[buddy357]

Sounds like you tried establishing your "natural point of aim". I got to shoot with some amazing shooters one year at the All-Navy shooting match and it helped me. Your body has a way it wants to go. If you get "close" and force the gun into proper alignment your body will try to shift into that natural alignment, especially during recoil. If you use a minute or so to just get into position, sight down the rifle, close eyes and relax a bit. See where the muzzle points now and adjust accordingly and try again. With practice you will find yourself learning to get really close to that point as you get into position.

It helped me shoot expert the first time I shot an AR with a sling and someone else's dope. Up to then we had been using M-14's at work so it was new for me. Much easier to shoot though.

It is simpler than it sounds and I am sure I suck at explaining it.

 

[axshon]

Yeah I did a lot of breath and npa stuff in the infantry years ago but with 5.56. My problem with recoil was getting my body aligned properly AND in a natural, relaxed position at the same time. Before, I was in a great position for one shot but would have to adjust after every shot as the rifle was not able to recoil straight back.


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[axshon]

I should add that I'm not saying you're wrong buddy357, just that my particular problem is/was another step on the same path. Appreciate the insights.


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[justeric]

Just my two cents but it sounds like you are having problems with your scopes parallax. When you don't have your parallax set properly, you can move your head left and right, a little, and see your point of aim change on the target. When you set the parallax correctly, you shouldn't see your point of aim change when you move your head.

If you have a parallax problem, you can still get consistent shots if you place your head in he same position every shot. That is very hard to do. Shooting from different positions would just exacerbate parallax problems since your head is in different place for each position.

I'm just a regular shooter but I get consistent shots from different shooting positions, shooting off a bipod. I gave up my 308 for a 6.5 Creedmoor and when I get behind the gun I can see my shots hit. I tend to get right behind the gun in a straight line which keeps the gun from recoiling sideways off target.

Do some internet research on parallax and see if that might explain the problem your having.

Good Luck,
Eric

 

[molonlabe]

I can solve the extra 1/2'' of height problem. Eat more bacon.

Drink half and half, I put on two pounds when I had a craving for it.

 

[E.Shell]

Sounds like you tried establishing your "natural point of aim". I got to shoot with some amazing shooters one year at the All-Navy shooting match and it helped me. Your body has a way it wants to go. If you get "close" and force the gun into proper alignment your body will try to shift into that natural alignment, especially during recoil. If you use a minute or so to just get into position, sight down the rifle, close eyes and relax a bit. See where the muzzle points now and adjust accordingly and try again. With practice you will find yourself learning to get really close to that point as you get into position.

It helped me shoot expert the first time I shot an AR with a sling and someone else's dope. Up to then we had been using M-14's at work so it was new for me. Much easier to shoot though.

It is simpler than it sounds and I am sure I suck at explaining it.

I should add that I'm not saying you're wrong buddy357, just that my particular problem is/was another step on the same path. Appreciate the insights.

I'm pretty sure he's right.

I saw your other thread about preloading the bipod and started to comment there, but you seemed satisfied with your results.

FWIW, here's my take on it:

Anatomically speaking, if you are somewhat average in build, your eye is not located above your shoulder. This clearly constitutes a problem for those shooters trying to be straight behind the gun and expect the eye to get behind the scope somehow.

For best results, we should honor our natural point of aim. You will see any championship level shooter carefully maintain their natural point of aim, be it long range prone (slung or bipod), high power, trap, skeet, bullseye handgun, rifle silhouette...and there is a reason for it.

When one shoots offhand in a traditional position, the solution is to blade the body with the foot on the support hand side leading. In other words, you can take a half step toward the target with your weak side foot, which more puts your shoulder under your eye. In this position, one does not need to energize torso muscles to twist into the target, nor does one strain neck muscles trying roll over to get behind the scope. If one stands square to the target and places the rifle in the shoulder pocket, the head must be rolled sharply to the side, and we find ourselves way back on the stock. You will often see totally new shooters adopt this stance and it is both incredibly awkward and it makes it impossible to see through the scope because their eye is back twice as far as the eye relief.

When we go prone, our anatomical relationship between eye and shoulder does not change. Just like standing, if we get too straight behind the gun, we are too far back on the stock and our head must roll sharply over the comb.

Plainly speaking, there is only ONE reason to lie straight behind the rifle: To stay alive. It is military doctrine taught to tactical marksmen that makes them harder to spot and harder to hit. Period. Marksmanship suffers, but the targets are rather large. No one but the military teaches this method and they do it for reasons that don't apply to us, not to mention that their goals differ from ours. As civilian shooters, we really don't need to emulate this bit of specialized military doctrine and I very strongly discourage my non-milspec students from trying to shoot like this. It is for the sake of comfortably shooting their best, and if we ever actually find ourselves in a "stay alive" situation, we will make a calculated trade off of precision and comfort for life itself.

Otherwise, natural point of aim rules - we shoot better and enjoy it more. Because it is more enjoyable, we shoot even better. What's not to like?

If you reduce your scope magnification to increase your eye relief latitude and exit pupil diameter, the scope will be more forgiving of position errors and we can set it up correctly for you.

Set the rifle up on target, then close your eyes and mount the rifle prone.

The rifle butt should meet the shoulder pocket in exactly the same place it does in any other position, albeit slightly higher because of your forward angle.

The head should drop straight down and remain close to erect, not leaned sharply to the side. The cheekbone should lie firmly on the comb/cheekpiece/stock pack.

Your shooting hand should be pulling the pistol grip toward your shoulder to maintain tight contact. This replaces that crazy "preload the bipod" thing, in which we attempt to overpower the rifle, and give us controllable, repeatable shoulder pressure from any position, not just the bench or grassy knoll.

And you should be comfortable.

With the rifle firmly in the shoulder, drop your head straight down on the stock, get comfortable and open your eyes. If you position and fit are good, you will have a full field of view through the scope and be comfortable on the stock, with no neck strain and no body tension trying to bulldoze the stock.

If you cannot see immediately, don't move out of your comfortable position and adapt yourself. Instead, identify WHY you can't see. What has to happen to permit a view?

Fix height problems first, so that when your cheekbone (not the chin, jaw or rolls of cheek meat) rests on the comb, your eye is at the right height behind the scope. This firm, non-floating contact will serve you two ways: First, it will keep your head behind the scope during recoil, to provide rapid reacquisition of your target, and second, it will keep your head/shoulder relationship together and recoil won't yank the gun out from under your head, which makes it feel worse than it really is.

Once height is correct, check your body position by how you must move your head back and forth to see. I'll take a wild ass guess and suggest that if you are a right handed shooter who learned to lay straight back, your head must be rolled right to see.

Fix this by moving your body in the opposite direction. If you have to roll your head right, move your body left an inch or two and repeat the test. You will find a point at which you no longer have to roll your head, just like taking a half step forward helps our natural point of aim from the standing position.

Consider this body angle that puts your eye behind the scope a "coarse adjustment" to your natural point of aim. When you return to this point, your eye will always fall in right behind the scope.

Once you find your natural point of aim, increase your scope magnification to maximum. Maximum magnification makes head position very critical and will allow you to fine tune your adjustments and position to a higher degree. If they are good at maximum, they'll be good everywhere.

Now, when you go shoot, begin in this position and recoil (you've already seen the symptoms) will tell you what's wrong. You can "fine tune" your natural point of aim from here.

If you are too straight behind the gun, it will jump left during recoil, and you already know how that is.

When you get correctly behind the gun and begin to support the recoil impulse, the rifle will drop right back down on target, recovery will be very fast and you will feel much more in control.

I shoot a 5R clone in .300 WinMag that weighs 12#. My current load is a 208 A-Max at 3,005 fps. Recoil is noticeable, but I can watch my bullets strike the target anywhere from about 300 yards on out past 1k. I can do this because I am in my natural point of aim and my head/shoulder/firing hand are unitized during recoil.

In the unlikely event that you go too far left with your body, the rifle will hop right during the recoil impulse.

So it IS all about the natural point of aim. This is also why recoil seems excessive with your .308 5R...because it is not under control. The closest you can come to getting it there while straight behind the gun is to try to overpower recoil by trapping the rifle between your tense body and some artificial lateral support that will not always be there.

This method is extremely expensive. It costs you immediate tremors as you energize muscle groups that should be relaxed, long term fatigue as you use your firing shoulder to do work your wrist could do and push your neck over, and because you are violating your natural point of aim and straining against the gun, your overall precision and consistent repeatability will not be what it could be.

 

[outrider58]

I'm pretty sure he's right.

I saw your other thread about preloading the bipod and started to comment there, but you seemed satisfied with your results.

FWIW, here's my take on it:

Anatomically speaking, if you are somewhat average in build, your eye is not located above your shoulder. This clearly constitutes a problem for those shooters trying to be straight behind the gun and expect the eye to get behind the scope somehow.

For best results, we should honor our natural point of aim. You will see any championship level shooter carefully maintain their natural point of aim, be it long range prone (slung or bipod), high power, trap, skeet, bullseye handgun, rifle silhouette...and there is a reason for it.

When one shoots offhand in a traditional position, the solution is to blade the body with the foot on the support hand side leading. In other words, you can take a half step toward the target with your weak side foot, which more puts your shoulder under your eye. In this position, one does not need to energize torso muscles to twist into the target, nor does one strain neck muscles trying roll over to get behind the scope. If one stands square to the target and places the rifle in the shoulder pocket, the head must be rolled sharply to the side, and we find ourselves way back on the stock. You will often see totally new shooters adopt this stance and it is both incredibly awkward and it makes it impossible to see through the scope because their eye is back twice as far as the eye relief.

When we go prone, our anatomical relationship between eye and shoulder does not change. Just like standing, if we get too straight behind the gun, we are too far back on the stock and our head must roll sharply over the comb.

Plainly speaking, there is only ONE reason to lie straight behind the rifle: To stay alive. It is military doctrine taught to tactical marksmen that makes them harder to spot and harder to hit. Period. Marksmanship suffers, but the targets are rather large. No one but the military teaches this method and they do it for reasons that don't apply to us, not to mention that their goals differ from ours. As civilian shooters, we really don't need to emulate this bit of specialized military doctrine and I very strongly discourage my non-milspec students from trying to shoot like this. It is for the sake of comfortably shooting their best, and if we ever actually find ourselves in a "stay alive" situation, we will make a calculated trade off of precision and comfort for life itself.

Otherwise, natural point of aim rules - we shoot better and enjoy it more. Because it is more enjoyable, we shoot even better. What's not to like?

If you reduce your scope magnification to increase your eye relief latitude and exit pupil diameter, the scope will be more forgiving of position errors and we can set it up correctly for you.

Set the rifle up on target, then close your eyes and mount the rifle prone.

The rifle butt should meet the shoulder pocket in exactly the same place it does in any other position, albeit slightly higher because of your forward angle.

The head should drop straight down and remain close to erect, not leaned sharply to the side. The cheekbone should lie firmly on the comb/cheekpiece/stock pack.

Your shooting hand should be pulling the pistol grip toward your shoulder to maintain tight contact. This replaces that crazy "preload the bipod" thing, in which we attempt to overpower the rifle, and give us controllable, repeatable shoulder pressure from any position, not just the bench or grassy knoll.

And you should be comfortable.

With the rifle firmly in the shoulder, drop your head straight down on the stock, get comfortable and open your eyes. If you position and fit are good, you will have a full field of view through the scope and be comfortable on the stock, with no neck strain and no body tension trying to bulldoze the stock.

If you cannot see immediately, don't move out of your comfortable position and adapt yourself. Instead, identify WHY you can't see. What has to happen to permit a view?

Fix height problems first, so that when your cheekbone (not the chin, jaw or rolls of cheek meat) rests on the comb, your eye is at the right height behind the scope. This firm, non-floating contact will serve you two ways: First, it will keep your head behind the scope during recoil, to provide rapid reacquisition of your target, and second, it will keep your head/shoulder relationship together and recoil won't yank the gun out from under your head, which makes it feel worse than it really is.

Once height is correct, check your body position by how you must move your head back and forth to see. I'll take a wild ass guess and suggest that if you are a right handed shooter who learned to lay straight back, your head must be rolled right to see.

Fix this by moving your body in the opposite direction. If you have to roll your head right, move your body left an inch or two and repeat the test. You will find a point at which you no longer have to roll your head, just like taking a half step forward helps our natural point of aim from the standing position.

Consider this body angle that puts your eye behind the scope a "coarse adjustment" to your natural point of aim. When you return to this point, your eye will always fall in right behind the scope.

Once you find your natural point of aim, increase your scope magnification to maximum. Maximum magnification makes head position very critical and will allow you to fine tune your adjustments and position to a higher degree. If they are good at maximum, they'll be good everywhere.

Now, when you go shoot, begin in this position and recoil (you've already seen the symptoms) will tell you what's wrong. You can "fine tune" your natural point of aim from here.

If you are too straight behind the gun, it will jump left during recoil, and you already know how that is.

When you get correctly behind the gun and begin to support the recoil impulse, the rifle will drop right back down on target, recovery will be very fast and you will feel much more in control.

I shoot a 5R clone in .300 WinMag that weighs 12#. My current load is a 208 A-Max at 3,005 fps. Recoil is noticeable, but I can watch my bullets strike the target anywhere from about 300 yards on out past 1k. I can do this because I am in my natural point of aim and my head/shoulder/firing hand are unitized during recoil.

In the unlikely event that you go too far left with your body, the rifle will hop right during the recoil impulse.

So it IS all about the natural point of aim. This is also why recoil seems excessive with your .308 5R...because it is not under control. The closest you can come to getting it there while straight behind the gun is to try to overpower recoil by trapping the rifle between your tense body and some artificial lateral support that will not always be there.

This method is extremely expensive. It costs you immediate tremors as you energize muscle groups that should be relaxed, long term fatigue as you use your firing shoulder to do work your wrist could do and push your neck over, and because you are violating your natural point of aim and straining against the gun, your overall precision and consistent repeatability will not be what it could be.

 

[Hawkeye]

Wow, Ed, that's some great advice and explanation. Thanks very much for that post.

 

[axshon]

Thanks Ed, as always.

My natural point of aim instruction was all military and all with the M16. I scored expert in the Marines every time I qualified and was high shooter in boot camp. With 5.56, recoil is much easier to manage. So when I hear NPA I think of getting into your most comfortable position, breathing and opening your eyes to see where you are actually aiming. Then you change your entire body position, rifle and all, not just your position behind it. I guess the assumption was that when you tucked in behind it you were automatically taking your most natural body position.

I've taken a couple short classes on position and watched some instructional videos of respected shooters (Frank Galli, etc) talking about addressing the rifle and having a good position behind it. I have heard the term 'getting squared to the rifle' and I believe I took it too literally. I've taken slo-mo video of myself and watched the way the recoil moves things around and felt pretty sure that putting my body completely square to the rifle and target was NOT what would yield best results. But I figured it must be something else I was doing wrong. Now that I'm able to stay on target and and maintain NPA it becomes much easier.

Regarding bipod preloading, are you suggesting that it is bunk or does it serve another purpose? I have a hook on the chassis where I place my hand to squeeze the rear bag and ensure good shoulder placement.

 

[E.Shell]

....My natural point of aim instruction was all military and all with the M16....

....I've taken a couple short classes on position and watched some instructional videos of respected shooters (Frank Galli, etc) talking about addressing the rifle and having a good position behind it. I have heard the term 'getting squared to the rifle' and I believe I took it too literally...

This is my exact point. Military marksmanship employs techniques that have limited value elsewhere. Frank is a knowledgeable shooter and excellent shot, in spite of what they taught him the sniper school.

Please do yourself a favor though, get away from military doctrine if you are trying to shoot your best.

We've all heard "The Right way, the Wrong way, and the Marine Corp way." or "The Right way, the Wrong way, and the Army way." There is much wisdom in these ancient parables.

They are teaching to the lowest common denominator, so to speak, because the whole cross section of humanity in any given class has to 'get it'. Techniques that are simple to teach to a herd and get 75% results are considered "productive". If you will be happy fighting recoil, fighting your bipod and getting 75% of your potential, just do what the military does.

Seriously, we would almost never do anything else in life just because the military does it that way...why chase this?

Regarding bipod preloading, are you suggesting that it is bunk or does it serve another purpose?

It serves the purpose of providing pressure against the shoulder, but it could be compared to measuring with a micrometer and cutting with a chain saw.

As I suggested above, use your firing hand to draw the rifle butt into your shoulder. This provides a technique to keep solid shoulder pressure that allows fine control, is quite consistent and can be used in places other than a flat prone firing point.

Rhetorical question: How would you preload your bipod if you had to shoot over the side of a 55 gallon drum? Over a log? On loose gravel? A car hood?

...I have a hook on the chassis where I place my hand to squeeze the rear bag and ensure good shoulder placement.

Now I think you are just trying to make me cry.