Range with radar?

[Slackdaddy]

@ Slackdaddy,

IIRC, the 44 mag out of a carbine barrel should be doing about 1,700-1,800 fps. Since the Ruger 44 mag of decades ago it has been a proven performer in deer sized game.
Now, you seem to be working with loads on the LOW side, and there are more than a few wonderful reasons to do it, but it does open the question of reliable, ethical, game taking capability. So, let me give you a few ideas:

1.- If you are working with loads that will produce less than 1,300 fps at the muzzle, FX airguns makes a radar operated chrono that works well with large base projectiles. It does not pick up well 0.172-0.177 bullets/pellets at longer ranges than 30-40 yards, but larger based projectiles (0.25 and up) do get picked up well at 100 yards.
These chronos sell for about $200, so for a RADAR operated chrono, it is not that expensive.
2.- I am not a believer in the "hydraulic shock", I do believe that wound cavities (both temporary and permanent) are an important indication of the "killing" ability of a projectile under a VERY specific set of conditions. In this context, I often create the "poor man's Syndaver" by using waterlogged newsprint. It is cheaper than ballistics gel and if you are organized and let the whole block dry, you can cut it with a fine saw and use the cross sections to determine if the projectile/velocity combination works.
A thick (0.004" to 0.015") works well as a "skin" substitute, and lamb/goat bones work well to imitate deer's.
So, you can create the specific scenario you are expecting in the field as far as distance, size & presentation of target, and behaviour of the live composite (skin, muscle, and bones) that the projectile will have to go through to get to the vitals. Once you are past the skin/bones/muscle, the rest is Jell-O.
3.- After many years I have come to the conclusion that accuracy is more important than impressive terminal ballistics. SOME performance in the TB category is necessary, but shot placement is more important, and a 0.44" cal. hole is a a 44 caliber hole.
4.- In MANY of my tests, the terminal performance has depended more on the impact speed than on the impact energy, so your intention of finding what is happening at range, is the correct one.
5.- Also from experience, pure lead projectiles with hollow points can start expanding upon impact at between 500 and 700 fps. Where exactly they will begin to expand RELIABLY depends on the shapes (internal & external) used. Harder lead may need double that, so if you are shooting cast or swaged bullet at low speeds, use pure lead and use the shape of the bullet to guarantee the internal and the terminal ballistics you want. Pure lead is a VERY viable material for bullets that are exiting the muzzle under the 1,300 fps level, and current lubes do a wonderful job of preventing leading in the barrel. There is also the possibility of using powder coated bullets if you want to operate in the 1,000 to 1,700 fps window.

I LOVE the subsonic realm, shooting at 1,050 fps or thereabouts can yield wonderful accuracy with long for caliber (but still stable), lead bullets out to some pretty impressive ranges. These will also give you sufficient penetration to get to where you need to. Just tailor the nose shape / point to the prey.

HTH, keep well, shoot straight, and keep us posted!





HM

Thanks for your reply.
To clarify,, I have yet to start shooting the 44 mag carbine.
But much experience with .45 saboted out of a 50 cal ML.
And with a 385-400 gr lead out of a 20 ga rifled barrel.
These 2 are running in the neighborhood of 1600-1700 at the barrel,, again I have not verified that with a chronograph.

Anyhow,, I am not interested in "hydraulic" shock, but "Hydrostatic" shock, or the momentary shock to the nervous system. This has nothing to do with lethality, but only the momentary shock/disabling of the nervous system.
I have witnessed it on a few neck shots that ended up not being lethal.
I was neck shooting a group of does (deer management) and had one go down that I thought was dead, she was down for 30-40 seconds, then put her head up and was looking around, then ran off to be shot by another member 10 minutes later.

From my reading on the 44 mag,, I would need an impact speed of ~2000 fps and above for reliable nervous system shock.
I am interested in nervous system shock so I don't have a dead deer running 100 yards.
The reason I am focusing on that point is,, I have shot MANY deer that I put a perfect fatal shot on the lungs and the deer ran 50-100 yards before collapsing. I have some hunting situations where that death run could lead to an unpleasant situation.

And yes, I agree, The main aspect is hitting your aim point,, without that all the planning is for nothing.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Short Answer First :

2000 fps impact velocity with .44 Magnum Rifle at 100 yards is NOT possible .

 

[Biggfoot44]

Longer Answers :

Yes , experentation for experenentation's sake is a fine thing .

Yes , Lots of Velocity is an approach .

Too close to Saturday Night bed time for major rabbit hole of BC calculations , so some overarching trends , and close extrapolations .

Extra zippy velocities inherently favor light for caliber bullets . Such light for caliber bullets have even crappier BC
, and shed velocity even faster than typical .44 bullets

The ammo and bullet mfgs all caution their 180 jhp ..44 bullets are not suitable for even usual Rifle velocities .


It is possible for reasonably close to your 100yd velocity goals , but not with .44 Mag .

Published velocities for 265 gr .444 show 1970 fps at 100 yds. Could dropping to 240 gr in .444 give higher velocity for 100yds ? I dunno , maybe ?

You could also look into .450 bushmastee with 300 gr .

 

[Slackdaddy]

Short Answer First :

2000 fps impact velocity with .44 Magnum Rifle at 100 yards is NOT possible .

Correct,,, so I have been slowly finding out.

 

[Slackdaddy]

Longer Answers :

Yes , experentation for experenentation's sake is a fine thing .

Yes , Lots of Velocity is an approach .

Too close to Saturday Night bed time for major rabbit hole of BC calculations , so some overarching trends , and close extrapolations .

Extra zippy velocities inherently favor light for caliber bullets . Such light for caliber bullets have even crappier BC
, and shed velocity even faster than typical .44 bullets

The ammo and bullet mfgs all caution their 180 jhp ..44 bullets are not suitable for even usual Rifle velocities .


It is possible for reasonably close to your 100yd velocity goals , but not with .44 Mag .

Published velocities for 265 gr .444 show 1970 fps at 100 yds. Could dropping to 240 gr in .444 give higher velocity for 100yds ? I dunno , maybe ?

You could also look into .450 bushmastee with 300 gr .

Agree with what you are saying.

The 44mag is what I will be using for the next year or so,, so best I learn everything I can, thus my need to collect data on what I am actually shooting.
If and when I upgrade this rifle, it will be a 45-70 lever gun.

This spring I have some 200 and 220 grain bullets I want to load and try,, so I can see the velocities at 80, 100, 120 yards.
I will then have to think about my style of shots once I have all the data. "Heart",, Heart lung" , shoulder? the goal is to NOT have a "Dead Deer" running 50-100 yards.

But in the mean time,, I am going to enjoy learning all I can about this "new to me" caliber.

 

[ToolAA]

@Ed, I understand there are recoil activated triggers for the labradar now to avoid the trigger on other's report issue.

I found a DIY recoil trigger discussion on AR15.com and it’s been on my todo list for a while. It uses a cheap SW-18020P Ordinary Spring Vibration Sensor Switch 10Pcs https://a.co/d/9ZMSUCd

DIY Labradar recoil trigger. - AR15.COM

Firearm Discussion and Resources from AR-15, AK-47, Handguns and more! Buy, Sell, and Trade your Firearms and Gear.

www.ar15.com

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Biggfoot44]

I will then have to think about my style of shots once I have all the data. "Heart",, Heart lung" , shoulder? the goal is to NOT have a "Dead Deer" running 50-100 yards.

Since you asked ......

The answer you are most seeking is Shoulder , in combination with at least one lung .

Once upon a year , I had the textbook example of what you seek .

Bolt action 12ga , .50 cal 440gr actual non expanding projectile , moderate velocity , 75 yards . Slug went thru both Shoulder blades , and both lungs . Deer just fell onto its face , without taking a step . Frankly I wasn't trying for this specifically, but it worked out this way.

Double Shoulder double lung would have to be lined up just right . More typically you would aim for one Shoulder either before or after passing thru lungs .

This approach requires deep penetration.

Plan B for reasonably quick dropping is LOTS of lung damage , ideally Heart also .

. This approach requires lots of quick expansion , and avoiding Shoulder for heart/ lung area only . In .44 mag rifle , think ( non XTP ) 200 gr HP loaded hot .

Plan A calls for hard cast or Jacketed Soft Point . Plan B calls for fast expanding HP . You'll have to let the shot you take be dictated by the loaf in the gun , or vice versa . Or be extra complicated , and have the first two rounds stagger loaded , and eject the first one if it's the wrong one . ie , if cast in chamber , and JHP wanted , flick the lever before shooting.


***********************

Everyone else reading the thread , who wants a good all around round , can load up with typical 240 gr JHP .

For me personally? If I can squeeze some Bambi time into my busy zero sum schedule this year ;, it will be with 240 cast.

 

[Hector J Medina G]

@Slackdaddy

Bigfoot hit the nail in the head. Sorry I misunderstood your idea.

BC's of 200 grs. / 0.429" projectiles are usually at around 0.16, so, even assuming you could get 1800 fps out of it, at 100 yards you're doing mid-1300's

Since you seem to be set on keeping this caliber, at least for a year, I would suggest you get some Fort Scott Munitions bullets and test them.
Their 200 gr load leaves at a bit under 1900 fps out of an 8" barrel, so it seems like a worthwhile thing to try in a longer barrel, and since their design does not rely on expansion, there is no other way to find out what the results are except by testing.

And, since they do not have carbine data on their webpage, perhaps they would be interested in your experiments. ;-)

I have also participated in some culling operations, in Scotland you are not limited to straight walled cases, so 7.62X51 was chosen and loaded with Nosler partitions. Their "red deer" is, basically our "elk", so they are quite a bit bigger than our white-tails, and yes, heart & lungs shot is the preferred POA. With the craggy terrain of the Cairngorms, you do NOT need a deer running more than 20 yards and falling over a precipice where the remainder would be a Jell-O mush after a 100 ft straight drop.

One thing that needs to be said is that even with a lousy BC (0.15 is really low from a shoulder gun), with an 87 yard zero you are, within a 1.5" KZ, on point-blank range between 23 to 98 yards, And from the 90 yards mark, every 10 yards the bullet drops 0.2 mRads, so not too bad out to 120, there are many scopes that will solve the issue with no need to re-adjust the dial. Just choose a different aimpoint in the reticle.
For ease of sighting in, first zero is about 34 yards.

Hope you get the time to make up the "Syndaver" experiments, still, whatever you do, keep us posted!

Thanks!






HM

 

[GBMaryland]

In the future I will have some loads I would like to get velocities out to 100 yards (Muzzle, 25, 50, 100)
I am not in the market to buy a LABRADAR as I would only use it 2-3 times a year.

Is there any public/private range that has one set up on a lane to rent by the hour ?

Xero® C1 Pro Chronograph

www.garmin.com

garmin is WAY better than the lab radar…..

It’s all but put lab radar out of business. Which means that you can find lab radars cheap…

 

[Hector J Medina G]

Xero® C1 Pro Chronograph

www.garmin.com

garmin is WAY better than the lab radar…..

It’s all but put lab radar out of business. Which means that you can find lab radars cheap…

Sorry, but I don't see how or why.

Reality check:
Garmin's Xero C measures speeds at ONE place.
You can place it at the muzzle, or you can place it somewhere else, but it measures speeds at ONE place.
LabRadar measures speeds along the path of the projectile (for calibers in the 0.222" and up region, quite reliably, for calibers in the 0.14 to 0.20 within 40-60 yards).

Putting your Garmin X-C out at 120 yards is no different than putting a conventional chrono at 120 yards.

The frontal foot-print is not easier to protect than a conventional chrono.

You're comparing plums to oranges. The plum costs $600, the orange costs $500
and a conventional chrono with a BIG shoot-through area can be had for about $120

I have been using Chronographs since 1988, my old Pro Chrono is a museum piece, but it still works and it still gets used. My Pro-Chrono digital is used outside when I need portability. My Caldwell is the one that goes out on a limb to get REAL BC's because it has a BIG window.

Apart from the FX's True Ballistics radar system, Lab Radar has no competition on the civilian market.







HM

 

[erwos]

Reality check:
Garmin's Xero C measures speeds at ONE place.

Have we confirmed this in the data files? If so, yeah, you're 100% correct that I'd never give up my LabRadar in that case. Quickie BC calculation is an extremely useful capability for what I shoot. OTOH, I'm probably still gonna get a Xero C1 just for convenience, when it hits $450 or so.

 

[Hector J Medina G]

Have we confirmed this in the data files? If so, yeah, you're 100% correct that I'd never give up my LabRadar in that case. Quickie BC calculation is an extremely useful capability for what I shoot. OTOH, I'm probably still gonna get a Xero C1 just for convenience, when it hits $450 or so.

Before I buy something, I read the manuals.

Nowhere in the manuals is there a section about reading speeds along a trajectory.

Do I have a Lab Radar?
Nope. Most of my custom work is in very small calibers, so it is not as useful to me as it could be if I worked on bigger calibers (like the OP's interest was).

AND, the OP was worried about terminal ballistics. IMHE, there is no substitute to practical terminal ballistic tests, and that does NOT mean ballistic gel. I am fully conversant with the gel, its uses and its parameters. So much so that the Army and the FBI/DEA commissioned ballistic gel blocks validation tools from me. So, I do know how and when to use Gel.
IF/WHEN I REALLY want to know what a specific projectile will do, I make up a "poor man's Syndaver" and do real rests.

All the BC's, Knock-out factors, and Punch Indexes in the world cannot give you the information that shooting the intended projectile at a properly made Syndaver will. Yes it is labor intensive, but it can also be enlightening.

I've had conversations with Lab Radar, and the limit here is the power allowed unde FCC's rules. They COULD make a unit to detect better and farther, but it would not be available to the civilian market.

PERSONALLY, I do not find the use for the Xero-C; setting up my battery driven Caldwell takes no more time than setting the Xero-C would, if I am well prepared for the range day (as I should be).

But, everything is personal. If you do buy the Xero-C keep us posted.

THANKS!





HM

 

[erwos]

PERSONALLY, I do not find the use for the Xero-C; setting up my battery driven Caldwell takes no more time than setting the Xero-C would, if I am well prepared for the range day (as I should be).

But, everything is personal. If you do buy the Xero-C keep us posted.

I like the LabRadar and MSv3 because I can set them up outside of cease-fires. The Caldwell doesn't take so much time, but it's all gotta happen down range, which is annoying at times.

 

[smdub]

I like the LabRadar and MSv3 because I can set them up outside of cease-fires. The Caldwell doesn't take so much time, but it's all gotta happen down range, which is annoying at times.

^this. An optical chrono at a public range is a PITA to use. Not sure you are allowed to ever go down range at an indoor location either.

 

[Hector J Medina G]

@erwos & @smdub

In that, you are absolutely correct.
My range is seldom in use by more than 4 people, and getting a cold line is dead easy.
MOST of the times I am there by myself or maybe one more person.
Even on "sight-in days" when it is real busy, you find shooters that get there, zero their rifles with 4 or 5 shots and then go away.

That allows a lot more freedom.

In view of the difference between the cost of the conventional Chronos and the High Tech ones (FX True Ballistics, LabRadar, MagnetoSpeed, etc), I guess the membership of the club pays for itself.
;-)

Keep well and shoot straight!




HM

 

[Biggfoot44]

" Syndaver " ? Poor Man's or otherwise ?

 

[Hector J Medina G]

" Syndaver " ? Poor Man's or otherwise ?

" Syndaver "= SYNthetic caDAVER.

You can buy these things, but the professionally made ones are hideously expensive. And in general, they do mostly human versions.
Getting a deer, or even a rat is a "custom work" and we all know what that mean$.

I started trying to replicate the REAL behaviour of projectiles upon hitting real targets back in the 80's. I had started swaging my own 30 cal. projectiles using a Corbin hand press and it was absolutely essential that I test the terminal performance of the projectile at the right/expected impact speeds.
Tested a number of "media" from huge blocks of soap (back then I had contacts with some pretty heavyweight industrials), to different forms of putty, and, of course, ballistic gel.
Some of the media were too hard and ALWAYS created an expansion, others were too soft and had no cohesion, so that the temporary and permanent would cavity had no significance, others had the right "hardness" but were too homogeneous (like gel) that cannot replicate the "Shredding" effect of muscle and bone on the exposed lead.

Then I came across an article of someone in the northern US that was trying to figure out the "hydraulic shock", his experiments were about hanging a known weight and then come up with the force imparted to the target by the angle to which the "weight" rose. Pretty much a ballistic pendulum.
For economy he had started using watersoaked newspapers, but he got disappointed from the "abrasion" that the material imparted to the bullets. He blamed that "abrasion" for the lack of results using his "pendulum".

In any case, what he rejected, I needed and so, I started testing a number of sizes vs. projectile architectures/compositions and weights.

The results were enlightening, and I have used the same methodology to establish the viability of a projectile at a given impact speed against a certain size/weight/composition of target with good consistency.

Nowadays it is not as easy to get free newsprint paper, though it is not impossible, but newsprint paper is now used as wrapping/packing paper, so it is still available at a very economical price.

Trick here is to know the anatomy of the animal in question and approach it as seriously and with as much detail as possible.
Some domestic animals bones can be used (specially the rib-cage) for most simulations, thicknesses of Polyethylene replicate reasonably well the behaviour of live skin. If you want to be super-picky, colored Jell-O can serve for liver, lungs, etc. a piece of rump wrapped onto a small balloon works well as substitute of the heart. Femurs, and hips can be used as long as the right size is approximated.

Now, you do not need to get super-fancy, for the round we are talking about what you really want is a 4"-5" 'Slice' of the target critter with "skin, muscle, and bone" on the way in, then some "organs", and then the reverse: bone, muscle and skin on the way out. For a rifle magnum, you may need to make a 10"-12" slice so as to replicate the whole thing better, and modern super mags (338 and things like that), you may need 20"-24".

In the end it is all about what YOU consider ethical hunting. When I was making my own bullets I wanted to make sure that they would perform to the expectations I had and, as in everything in life, you only truly know when you have done it. Initial testing ON actual game was, to me, unacceptable, but, to each his own.

HTH, keep well and shoot straight!





HM

 

[GBMaryland]

Sorry, but I don't see how or why.

Reality check:
Garmin's Xero C measures speeds at ONE place.
You can place it at the muzzle, or you can place it somewhere else, but it measures speeds at ONE place.
LabRadar measures speeds along the path of the projectile (for calibers in the 0.222" and up region, quite reliably, for calibers in the 0.14 to 0.20 within 40-60 yards).

Putting your Garmin X-C out at 120 yards is no different than putting a conventional chrono at 120 yards.

The frontal foot-print is not easier to protect than a conventional chrono.

You're comparing plums to oranges. The plum costs $600, the orange costs $500
and a conventional chrono with a BIG shoot-through area can be had for about $120

I have been using Chronographs since 1988, my old Pro Chrono is a museum piece, but it still works and it still gets used. My Pro-Chrono digital is used outside when I need portability. My Caldwell is the one that goes out on a limb to get REAL BC's because it has a BIG window.

Apart from the FX's True Ballistics radar system, Lab Radar has no competition on the civilian market.







HM

Bahahahahaha

Your point is fairly irrelevant at this time.

The market for the lab radar has completely fallen apart and effectively the Garmin chronograph is put lab radar out of business.

The reality is that tracking all the way down range isn’t useful, unless you’re actually going to try to create a ballistic coefficient for your rounds. However, real world use doesn’t actually care about that….

You need muzzle velocity to allow you to create your initial ballistic profile for the engine you are going to use to determine overall drop at distance. (AB ballistics, etc.)

Using gravity ballistics, a gravity based model and shooting in hundred yard increments out to 1000 yards, you can true any ballistic algorithm using the muzzle velocity.

I do this all the time, and I have no problems whatsoever shooting out to a mile.

If you’re trying to build the BC (ballistic coefficient) you can go to any number of regional shoots and AB ballistics will have someone there with an actual Doppler radar that can actually track your bullet out to distance. The lab radar is iffy at best and never worked especially well.

The Garmin chronograph is an excellent replacement for the lab radar, and it is on par with either the lab radar or the magneto speed. However, it’s a piece of cake to set up and nowhere near as much of a PITA to use.

I’ve tested it to the point where it is as accurate as either of the other two.

If you don’t believe me… Go take a look at the threads on the sniper’s hide. Everybody is ditching their lab radar because the difference in functionality is totally meaningless for the purposes of building a proper ballistic profile any ballistic calculator (Kestrel, Sig10K, Garmin Delta Elite / Delta Pro 7, Honady DoF, etc., etc.)

 

[Hector J Medina G]

Bahahahahaha

Your point is fairly irrelevant at this time.

The market for the lab radar has completely fallen apart and effectively the Garmin chronograph is put lab radar out of business.

The reality is that tracking all the way down range isn’t useful, unless you’re actually going to try to create a ballistic coefficient for your rounds. However, real world use doesn’t actually care about that….

You need muzzle velocity to allow you to create your initial ballistic profile for the engine you are going to use to determine overall drop at distance. (AB ballistics, etc.)

Using gravity ballistics, a gravity based model and shooting in hundred yard increments out to 1000 yards, you can true any ballistic algorithm using the muzzle velocity.

I do this all the time, and I have no problems whatsoever shooting out to a mile.

If you’re trying to build the BC (ballistic coefficient) you can go to any number of regional shoots and AB ballistics will have someone there with an actual Doppler radar that can actually track your bullet out to distance. The lab radar is iffy at best and never worked especially well.

The Garmin chronograph is an excellent replacement for the lab radar, and it is on par with either the lab radar or the magneto speed. However, it’s a piece of cake to set up and nowhere near as much of a PITA to use.

I’ve tested it to the point where it is as accurate as either of the other two.

If you don’t believe me… Go take a look at the threads on the sniper’s hide. Everybody is ditching their lab radar because the difference in functionality is totally meaningless for the purposes of building a proper ballistic profile any ballistic calculator (Kestrel, Sig10K, Garmin Delta Elite / Delta Pro 7, Honady DoF, etc., etc.)

To each his own.

First of all, the OP was about TERMINAL ballistics, and I clearly answered that I do not own, nor have any interest in the LabRadar because, for small projectiles, it looses track at the 35-40 yards mark. You seem, however, to have some connection to the Garmin...

The OP's request was for ideas about how to find out the IMPACT velocity without having to setup a chrono at the target.
For many, that is a risk they do not want to take, and/or an organizational impossibility because some ranges simply prohibit setting things beyond the firing line, or hard to do for any other reason.

I already answered that, for terminal ballistics, I do not CARE about impact speed and I do my own "Syn-Daver" tests. In the end, I never fight reality.

I am fairly involved in the design of projectiles, consulting for some companies on the subject, so our aims are different.

You want to "true" your trajectory? fine, spend the time doing that. Your results will only be good for YOUR SYSTEM.
And it's OK. Again, our aims are different.

In the end, the BC is JUST A SCALE FACTOR.
As soon as you move away from the basic shape of the "standard" projectile, the Drag Function changes and the whole BC scheme/house of cards falls down. G1, G2, G5, G6. G7, G8, GA, GL, GS, they are ALL different.

In that sense, you would be better off taking all your readings and using the Pejsa method to determine the deceleration coefficients by section. You are measuring the drop every 100 yards anyway, very lucky of you to have access to a mile long range BTW; and the wind drift depends on the difference between the real TOF and he TOF in vacuum, so . . . you do not even need the software if you know what you're doing. If that works for you, fine!

However:

Terminal ballistics is completely case-specific, and whatever apparatus you use for the measurement of velocity will not give direct information about what a 44 magnum carbine will do as a hunting tool, which was the OP's need and reason for asking.

I really and deeply dislike the hi-jacking of threads.

Keep well and shoot straight!






HM