Range with radar?

[Slackdaddy]

In the future I will have some loads I would like to get velocities out to 100 yards (Muzzle, 25, 50, 100)
I am not in the market to buy a LABRADAR as I would only use it 2-3 times a year.

Is there any public/private range that has one set up on a lane to rent by the hour ?

 

[E.Shell]

Sorry not to be able to help with your direct question, but...:

With the ballistic science and software available today, all you really need for such short distances is a muzzle velocity and accurate ballistic coefficient to calculate the desired velocities well within acceptable margins of error.

I own a Magneto-Speed and a LabRadar and had access to an Ohler 35P for several years. The difference between the three is less than 1%, and any error greater than that was due to the Ohler not catching the shadow with all three screens. The MagnetoSpeed and LabRadar were always in agreement. If your firearm's configuration allows the use of the (strap-on) MagnetoSpeed, that would be a cost-effective solution.

The major drawback of the LabRadar at ranges with multiple shooters is that it triggers on report, so it will often trigger when the shooter next to you fires, which will either catch his projectile instead of yours or produce an error due to being unable to find a projectile immediately upon triggering.

 

[gwchem]

I agree with Ed. All you need is bullet coefficients and muzzle velocity. Lots of members here have a Chrono that you could probably borrow. Where are you located?

 

[Slackdaddy]

Thanks for the responses.
For some more info,, I will be working on some deer loads for my new 44 mag henry carbine.
I have specific needs/wants for velocity out to 120 yards.
Dealing with min vel in terms of Hydrostatic and hydraulic events,, and the 44 mag in a rifle is barely reaching these speeds at the muzzle. I was wanting to experment with differant shape, weight and meplat bullets, but I am so close to being below my threshold, not sure pencil and paper will give me what I need.

 

[gwchem]

I can understand not wanting to Chrono out to 1200 yards to save time, but 120 should be a piece of cake.

 

[Slackdaddy]

I can understand not wanting to Chrono out to 1200 yards to save time, but 120 should be a piece of cake.

are you saying putting a standard optical chrono out at 50 or 100 yards?

 

[gwchem]

are you saying putting a standard optical chrono out at 50 or 100 yards?

Sure, why not? It'll get you exactly what you described. Just make sure you aim well!

 

[Slackdaddy]

Sure, why not? It'll get you exactly what you described. Just make sure you aim well!

Best to know my bullet drop before hand

 

[atblis]

Just put a sandbag in front of the chronograph

 

[smdub]

I've been tempted to buy a radar for somewhat similar reasons. Already have a screen based chrono but it doesn't like some big loads (that have powder blow past the bullet.) Its awkward to use at AGC too. I don't think it would even survive the muzzle blast of 50BMG and larger rounds either which is where I'm really needing it now. A radar safely above/below the muzzle brake (or off to the side and a little forward) should work.

Using surplus powder so need to work up a safe load w/ the batch I have. (basically match the loaded rounds I already have.)

@Ed, I understand there are recoil activated triggers for the labradar now to avoid the trigger on other's report issue.

 

[erwos]

The cool kids have moved on from LabRadar and are now using the BulletSeeker or True Ballistics chronos.

I don't think any ranges rent chronos. Wouldn't be a bad revenue idea, but using them requires enough subject matter knowledge that I'm not sure the juice would be worth the squeeze.

 

[4g64loser]

The cool kids have moved on from LabRadar and are now using the BulletSeeker or True Ballistics chronos.

I don't think any ranges rent chronos. Wouldn't be a bad revenue idea, but using them requires enough subject matter knowledge that I'm not sure the juice would be worth the squeeze.

It isn't.

Know a place that USED TO. Also know the details of why they don't.

I used to have a magnetospeed v3 but got a labradar instead because it is the only way to efficiently gather data for more than one or two students in anything resembling a timely manner. There are definitely some limitations to the system and it has some quirks. The public range issues mentioned above being the most irritating. I haven't experimented with the inertial trigger system yet. I have and use a tie clip mic for suppressed stuff and have even made that work for a bow by locating it next to the string stop.

 

[erwos]

I used to have a magnetospeed v3 but got a labradar instead because it is the only way to efficiently gather data for more than one or two students in anything resembling a timely manner. There are definitely some limitations to the system and it has some quirks. The public range issues mentioned above being the most irritating. I haven't experimented with the inertial trigger system yet. I have and use a tie clip mic for suppressed stuff and have even made that work for a bow by locating it next to the string stop.

I need a radar solution because the MSv3 ain't useful with pistols. Probably on the list for next year.

 

[4g64loser]

I need a radar solution because the MSv3 ain't useful with pistols. Probably on the list for next year.

I actually modified a Ransom rest with a spar for the v3. It was rotation and distance adjustable but I guess this solution would only work if you have ransom shells for each gun you are messing with.

 

[lazarus]

I need a radar solution because the MSv3 ain't useful with pistols. Probably on the list for next year.

That is my struggle as well. I love my Magnetospeed and the company is stand up. My V3 sporter died. I bought it still in the packaging from a pawn shop. They replaced it just outside of the 1 year warranty when it died (pretty sure if was the cable connection in the bayonet). They shipped me a new one and a pre-paid return label for the old one, no charge.

Anyway, other than the occasional issue of it not picking up a round if not mounted quite right, and that it'll walk forward on most rifles that don't have some kind of front sight to retain it (even when cinched down super tight), so you need to double check it every 2-4 rounds, it works wonderfully.

But of course, no dice on pistols. I use a pro chrono DLX for pistols, and that works wonderfully. I have found with the pro chono, for whatever reason, I need to have it positioned a lot further away when shooting my 27-2. No idea why, it picks up my Dan Wesson 44 rounds just fine and accurately. All other pistols I've tried, but with my 27-2 I get very inaccurate readings and a fair amount of errors if I am not positioning it at least 7yds out. Most other stuff, 4-5yds is fine.

 

[Slackdaddy]

The cool kids have moved on from LabRadar and are now using the BulletSeeker or True Ballistics chronos.

I don't think any ranges rent chronos. Wouldn't be a bad revenue idea, but using them requires enough subject matter knowledge that I'm not sure the juice would be worth the squeeze.

If a range had one perm set up, it could rent that lane with an operator,,
I think 70-80 an hour for a lane with an operator would sell.

 

[4g64loser]

If a range had one perm set up, it could rent that lane with an operator,,
I think 70-80 an hour for a lane with an operator would sell.

Hell, I wouldn't charge you that much. More like 50. Hahaha.

 

[deerassassin22]

As someone mentioned above i shoot thru my chronograph at 200-400yards with no real problems just know what your drops are and confirm before shooting over or put a steel plate in front of the chronograph

 

[Hector J Medina G]

@ Slackdaddy,

IIRC, the 44 mag out of a carbine barrel should be doing about 1,700-1,800 fps. Since the Ruger 44 mag of decades ago it has been a proven performer in deer sized game.
Now, you seem to be working with loads on the LOW side, and there are more than a few wonderful reasons to do it, but it does open the question of reliable, ethical, game taking capability. So, let me give you a few ideas:

1.- If you are working with loads that will produce less than 1,300 fps at the muzzle, FX airguns makes a radar operated chrono that works well with large base projectiles. It does not pick up well 0.172-0.177 bullets/pellets at longer ranges than 30-40 yards, but larger based projectiles (0.25 and up) do get picked up well at 100 yards.
These chronos sell for about $200, so for a RADAR operated chrono, it is not that expensive.
2.- I am not a believer in the "hydraulic shock", I do believe that wound cavities (both temporary and permanent) are an important indication of the "killing" ability of a projectile under a VERY specific set of conditions. In this context, I often create the "poor man's Syndaver" by using waterlogged newsprint. It is cheaper than ballistics gel and if you are organized and let the whole block dry, you can cut it with a fine saw and use the cross sections to determine if the projectile/velocity combination works.
A thick (0.004" to 0.015") works well as a "skin" substitute, and lamb/goat bones work well to imitate deer's.
So, you can create the specific scenario you are expecting in the field as far as distance, size & presentation of target, and behaviour of the live composite (skin, muscle, and bones) that the projectile will have to go through to get to the vitals. Once you are past the skin/bones/muscle, the rest is Jell-O.
3.- After many years I have come to the conclusion that accuracy is more important than impressive terminal ballistics. SOME performance in the TB category is necessary, but shot placement is more important, and a 0.44" cal. hole is a a 44 caliber hole.
4.- In MANY of my tests, the terminal performance has depended more on the impact speed than on the impact energy, so your intention of finding what is happening at range, is the correct one.
5.- Also from experience, pure lead projectiles with hollow points can start expanding upon impact at between 500 and 700 fps. Where exactly they will begin to expand RELIABLY depends on the shapes (internal & external) used. Harder lead may need double that, so if you are shooting cast or swaged bullet at low speeds, use pure lead and use the shape of the bullet to guarantee the internal and the terminal ballistics you want. Pure lead is a VERY viable material for bullets that are exiting the muzzle under the 1,300 fps level, and current lubes do a wonderful job of preventing leading in the barrel. There is also the possibility of using powder coated bullets if you want to operate in the 1,000 to 1,700 fps window.

I LOVE the subsonic realm, shooting at 1,050 fps or thereabouts can yield wonderful accuracy with long for caliber (but still stable), lead bullets out to some pretty impressive ranges. These will also give you sufficient penetration to get to where you need to. Just tailor the nose shape / point to the prey.

HTH, keep well, shoot straight, and keep us posted!





HM

 

[Blacksmith101]

@ Slackdaddy,

IIRC, the 44 mag out of a carbine barrel should be doing about 1,700-1,800 fps. Since the Ruger 44 mag of decades ago it has been a proven performer in deer sized game.
Now, you seem to be working with loads on the LOW side, and there are more than a few wonderful reasons to do it, but it does open the question of reliable, ethical, game taking capability. So, let me give you a few ideas:

1.- If you are working with loads that will produce less than 1,300 fps at the muzzle, FX airguns makes a radar operated chrono that works well with large base projectiles. It does not pick up well 0.172-0.177 bullets/pellets at longer ranges than 30-40 yards, but larger based projectiles (0.25 and up) do get picked up well at 100 yards.
These chronos sell for about $200, so for a RADAR operated chrono, it is not that expensive.
2.- I am not a believer in the "hydraulic shock", I do believe that wound cavities (both temporary and permanent) are an important indication of the "killing" ability of a projectile under a VERY specific set of conditions. In this context, I often create the "poor man's Syndaver" by using waterlogged newsprint. It is cheaper than ballistics gel and if you are organized and let the whole block dry, you can cut it with a fine saw and use the cross sections to determine if the projectile/velocity combination works.
A thick (0.004" to 0.015") works well as a "skin" substitute, and lamb/goat bones work well to imitate deer's.
So, you can create the specific scenario you are expecting in the field as far as distance, size & presentation of target, and behaviour of the live composite (skin, muscle, and bones) that the projectile will have to go through to get to the vitals. Once you are past the skin/bones/muscle, the rest is Jell-O.
3.- After many years I have come to the conclusion that accuracy is more important than impressive terminal ballistics. SOME performance in the TB category is necessary, but shot placement is more important, and a 0.44" cal. hole is a a 44 caliber hole.
4.- In MANY of my tests, the terminal performance has depended more on the impact speed than on the impact energy, so your intention of finding what is happening at range, is the correct one.
5.- Also from experience, pure lead projectiles with hollow points can start expanding upon impact at between 500 and 700 fps. Where exactly they will begin to expand RELIABLY depends on the shapes (internal & external) used. Harder lead may need double that, so if you are shooting cast or swaged bullet at low speeds, use pure lead and use the shape of the bullet to guarantee the internal and the terminal ballistics you want. Pure lead is a VERY viable material for bullets that are exiting the muzzle under the 1,300 fps level, and current lubes do a wonderful job of preventing leading in the barrel. There is also the possibility of using powder coated bullets if you want to operate in the 1,000 to 1,700 fps window.

I LOVE the subsonic realm, shooting at 1,050 fps or thereabouts can yield wonderful accuracy with long for caliber (but still stable), lead bullets out to some pretty impressive ranges. These will also give you sufficient penetration to get to where you need to. Just tailor the nose shape / point to the prey.

HTH, keep well, shoot straight, and keep us posted!





HM

Great post!