Question about rifles

[Winged Pig]

Hello,

I'm looking to hopefully get involved in some of the long range shooting that I read so much about here. I have been shooting a Remington 700 SPS in 6.8 SPC, and while I enjoy shooting it and have reloaded to get acceptable accuracy (less than 1 in), it doesn't have the umph to reach out that far.

I have decided to upgrade to a .308. I know that something larger would have better ballistics when reaching out, but I also want something that doesn't cost me a arm and a leg to shoot (reload) and doesn't kick me into next week.

So far I have narrowed my choices down to three, in three different price ranges. First would be a Remington 700 SPS R-5 that I think could be had for around $1000. Then a Kimber 8400 tactical which I have found for about $1700. And at at the top end a Sako TRG 22 which I have located for $2400. All of them obviously would be chambered for the .308.

I really like the Sako and the ability to adjust almost everything on it, but I know I could get a Remington and a high end scope for the same price. As I have no experience with the Kimber or the Sako, I'm looking for opinions and this looks like the place to ask for it.

Thanks in advance.

 

[3rdRcn]

Go with the remington and spend the savings on a good piece of glass, new stock, trigger and trigger gaurd. The remington is very easy to customize and will shoot as good as you do.

 

[E.Shell]

IMHO, as stated by 3rdRcn, the Rem 5R in .308 is going to get you the most bang for your buck initially, and you can do a LOT of shooting AND accessorizing on the cash differences.

The Sako TRG is a VERY fine rifle, typically shoots very well, and has some features that will be extra cost on the Remington, like a detachable magazine system, an adjustable comb and a near perfect trigger. The problem with the TRG is that any accessories one goes to add will usually be incredibly expensive, like extra magazines for $236, or $360 for a rail adapter to use standard Picatinny tactical style rings.

I don't have any direct experience with the Kimber rifle, but it seems to be about average for accuracy and were it not for the upgrades, VERY hard to justify the cost. It does come with a McMillan A-5 stock - worth $600 or so for the stock itself, plus $200 to pillar bed.

 

[Winged Pig]

Thanks for the responses.

I kind of figured that with buying the Remington I would have to spend some money on upgrades, but if it's going to take $600 to $800 for a stock and bedding, and then several hundred more to do the suggested trigger work, aren't I getting close to the price of the Sako?

I'm not looking to jump into something quickly simply to start getting trigger time as I'm shooting (although not as much as I would like to) now. I am thinking more of paying for things once and then enjoying them for a long time, whatever I decide to buy.

I have read a good bit about benchrest and the general consensus seems to be that Remington actions are notoriously out of square, but that they can be corrected. Not that my abilities would need that amount of precision... The one Remington that I have seems to shoot fairly well, but I have no idea how square the action is or to what degree it would improve my shooting if I had it cleaned up. Being that I can keep most groups around an inch and frequently below that I figure that it's not doing too bad as it is.

I have no experience with the Kimber, so thanks for the opinion on it. While I am a fan of Kimber products, I do agree that it appears to be a bit overpriced for what it is.

I also agree that the price of the Sako options are crazy expensive, but I have read where many Sako shooters get around some of that. For example I have seen an adapter on the rifle which allows the use a Harris bi-pod and a savings of about $500. The scope mounting problem seems to be something of an inescapable issue though.

I have located all three rifles and have looked at them all. The Remington is a basic rifle, the Kimber is a bit fancier but does not seem to be much different other than the extractor and the bolt handle. The Sako on the other hand just looks like a custom and seems to have all the neat features already built into it.

I can see this is going to cost me some money whichever way I go...

 

[trickg]

Have you thought about putting a different barrel on your current Model 700? That would save you money, put you into whatever caliber you wanted, and prevent you from having to buy a whole new rifle. If you are attached to the 6.8 SPC that's fine, but I just thought I would mention it.

 

[Winged Pig]

Have you thought about putting a different barrel on your current Model 700? That would save you money, put you into whatever caliber you wanted, and prevent you from having to buy a whole new rifle. If you are attached to the 6.8 SPC that's fine, but I just thought I would mention it.

Thanks for that suggestion, but I really like shooting the 6.8 and reloading it. Besides, I'm using this as an excuse to get another rifle. Now I have to move away from this as I don't want my wife to see your suggestion.

 

[E.Shell]

Thanks for the responses.

I kind of figured that with buying the Remington I would have to spend some money on upgrades, but if it's going to take $600 to $800 for a stock and bedding, and then several hundred more to do the suggested trigger work, aren't I getting close to the price of the Sako?

A marine-tex/steel-tex bedded McM or Manners stock for your Remington will cost you about the same a scope base and a couple extra mags for your Sako. . .

The OEM R5 stock is a very good one, and worth about $200 as a pull off if you decide you just hate it. In fact, I'll give you $200 for it now.

The Remington trigger can be user adjusted to be quite crisp and the last couple R5s I looked at were around 3-1/2 pounds straight from Remington. They are easy to set to 2-1/2#, about as light for a field rifle as I like to go. Any lighter and control is compromised. I have a 6 ounce trigger on my benchrest rifle and it's very difficult to master and downright hard to shoot in the field.

I'm not looking to jump into something quickly simply to start getting trigger time as I'm shooting (although not as much as I would like to) now. I am thinking more of paying for things once and then enjoying them for a long time, whatever I decide to buy.

This is a good approach, and you should definitely get the one you like best.

I have read a good bit about benchrest and the general consensus seems to be that Remington actions are notoriously out of square, but that they can be corrected.

LOL, I've shot a little benchrest myself, and according to that crowd, unless you have a custom action, and maybe even then, they're ALL out of square.

Lets talk about what game you want to play then . . . If you're shooting benchrest, none of the rifles mentioned will get you into the top twenty on any given Sunday. If you're *not* shooting benchrest, don't let those boys bend your head.

I see factory Remington Tactical models shoot to less than 3/4 MOA with factory match ammo quite often.That's the "first 95%". To get the next 5% costs dearly. I have a full blown GAP tactical competition rifle in 6.5-284. It shoots 1/4 to 3/8 MOA and last Thursday, I was smacking a 4" target at 1,000 yards. It's a Remington. I have a 6.5-300Wby 1k BR rifle built in the 90s, it's a 1/4 minute gun. It too is a Remington.

The BR boys' point is that you can spend $300 to true up a ($300) Remington, put the same money into it as a custom action, but in the end, it's still just a Remington, worth a few hundred bucks. A custom action, purchased for the same $600-700, is always worth $600-700. What they aren't saying is that many custom actions are also a little out of square and a good 'smith will true up any he barrels for serious competition.

I had GA Precision build a fast twist .243 so my daughter has a low recoil rifle to shoot tactical matches with me. I used one of my M700 hunting rifles for as donor action. George went over the action, tuned the trigger, installed a 24" Schneider 1:7.5 barrel and finished the whole deal in black Teflon for me. I bolted it into an OEM Remington PSS stock, loaded some test ammo and she was shooting 1/4 to 3/8 moa groups from the first shot. Total cost to me, not counting my action: $900, shipping back and forth to Kansas City included, plus the $150 stock. If you include the donor action at $300, we're talking $1,350 OTD for a gun that will outshoot almost anyone's ability to hold it in the field, including mine. It will also outshoot a Sako TRG and save enough to buy a scope.

Not that my abilities would need that amount of precision...

No one wants to be limited by their equipment.

The one Remington that I have seems to shoot fairly well, but I have no idea how square the action is or to what degree it would improve my shooting if I had it cleaned up. Being that I can keep most groups around an inch and frequently below that I figure that it's not doing too bad as it is.

That's "decent" accuracy for a factory hunting rifle, and the Remington deer rifles can actually be very disappointing, but one can expect better accuracy from the tac models, right off the shelf. I can't really remember the last time I saw an LTR, P/PS/PSS or R5 shoot groups one MOA or bigger with FGMM 175s, usually closer to 5/8-3/4, and most will shoot around 1/2 or even better with FGMM 168s.

I have no experience with the Kimber, so thanks for the opinion on it. While I am a fan of Kimber products, I do agree that it appears to be a bit overpriced for what it is.

I felt the same way about my Kimber 1911, "great gun, but is it really worth the extra money?".

I also agree that the price of the Sako options are crazy expensive, but I have read where many Sako shooters get around some of that. For example I have seen an adapter on the rifle which allows the use a Harris bi-pod and a savings of about $500. The scope mounting problem seems to be something of an inescapable issue though.

Aye.

I have located all three rifles and have looked at them all. The Remington is a basic rifle, the Kimber is a bit fancier but does not seem to be much different other than the extractor and the bolt handle. The Sako on the other hand just looks like a custom and seems to have all the neat features already built into it.

Sounds to me like you already want the Sako. Do it, they ARE great guns.

Just know that double/triple the cost didn't buy double/triple the downrange performance. A friend of mine has one and it has the adjustable stock. That thing can be set up to feel like an extension of your body and the trigger is superb. It shoots the same groups as my $800 unmodified Remington LTR, and as the last couple R5s I've seen shoot.

There is a lot to be said for pride in ownership, and it all boils down to what YOU want.

I can see this is going to cost me some money whichever way I go...

LOL, yeah, got that right. Wait till you start shopping glass. You know you're going to want to put a NF, S&B or USO on the TRG, anything less just wouldn't be right.

Can you get free this Sunday, join us at the F-class match? Give you a chance to meet some of the crowd and see what everybody is running for long range rigs.

Trickg, the odd-sized SPC bolt face needs to be opened up to shoot .473" case heads like the .308, which involves an M16 or Sako extractor conversion,and by the time you do all that, your money is usually better spent to simply replace.

 

[trickg]

Drums - not guns, but the comparison is very similar.

I own a Pearl SMX Session - 100% maple shells, 6-ply, 7.5 mm thickness, glossy lacquer finish, and the shells cost me $1100 new. The SMX is considered entry level pro as far as how it is marketed.

The Pearl Masters Premium (MRP - formerly MRX) also is 100% maple shells, 6-ply, 7.5 mm thickness, with a glossy polyurethane finish and uses die cast hoops. Price - $2500-$3000, depending on configuration.

In terms of what really counts, the drum shells, they are virtually identical, right down to the wood used and and the bearing edge that's cut on the shell, and yet one kit costs considerably more than the other.

Do you really think there is $1400-$1900 difference in sound between those two drum kits? A lot of how a drum kit sounds depends on how it's set up with heads and tuning(compare to dialed in action and ammo) and how it's played. (compare to the shooter using it) I didn't think there would be a big sound difference, so I went with the kit marketed as "entry level pro."

This isn't to say that the Masters drums can't perform - they most certainly can, but if performance is the main goal, there are ways to get there and not spend that much money. I chose performance over price and I can't tell you how often I get compliments on how my drums sound.

So, to put that into perspective of the rifle you want, yeah, you can get there with a Sako, but you can certainly get there with the Remington and you won't spend as much money. You may not have quite the same pride of ownership, but you'll have it downrange where it really counts.

 

[Winged Pig]

I appreciate everyone taking the time to assist me in my latest endeavour, and Mr. Shell, thank you for taking the time to post all the great information and the invitation to join in the fun at the upcoming F-class match. I am wondering if I can take a rain check on that invitation and join in the fun at one of the future events? That is after all what I am looking at getting into with all this. I also have to say that looking at all the pictures that you have posted has been a big part of my desire to get involved.

However, some of your pics (specifically those showing you spending time with your daughter) have also inspired me to stay home this weekend as I get to spend a rare Sunday with my granddaughter. While she is still a bit too young to accompany me on one of these shoots, I'm hoping that in the future she might want to join me. Right now I'll take whatever time I can get to spend with her.

Getting back to the rifle, I will admit that I was a bit smitten with the Sako. I will have to re-evaluate how much I really want it before I spend that much money. I did get to play with one and was very impressed with the trigger and the fit and finish, but again, I'll have to think about it.

As far as the Remington goes, I believe that I have that exact rifle (not sure about the R-5 rifling though) only chambered for 6.8. I'm sure that it is the exact stock, and while I like it I'm not sure if I wouldn't like something else better. Right now I have no plans to change it out for something else, so I'll keep shooting it like it is for at least a while longer.

And thanks for the tip on the benchrest stuff. I sometimes tend to over evaluate things, and while I do enjoy all the specific information on cartridge developement and reloading, I'm certainly not at that level. In fact, in describing my current level I would lean more towards low speed, high drag then the opposite.

So thanks again, and please keep me in mind for the next shoot.