Question about point of impact on reloads

[Magnumite]

IF it is going anywhere other than where the sights are lined up, you are jerking the trigger, too much finger, too little finger, etc... It is the shooter not the ammo. If you were at Cresap today, I think the wind was

Whenever you suspect a handgun load is firing off of POI, verify by firing the gun off a pistol rest. Otherwise you can end up spending alot of time chasing your tail. I always do load development using a rest- same with adjusting sights on a handgun. Once you are striking point of aim, then go to offhand shooting & see if its the shooter, & not the gun/load.

Damifinoish experiences mirror mine in respect to bullet impact. I've noticed this for years, bullet weight and velocity changes will effect POI in the windage as well as the elevation plane.

It must kept in mind the gun is recoiling before the bullet leaves the barrel. Bullet barrel dwell time, how the gun torques in the hand, how the gun slips effect impact. Shoot a couple groups of a good 185 - 200 grain SWC's then a couple groups of 230 grain ball. The ball will shoot high, of course due to being a heavier projectile, but will also print about 1'' - 1 1/2" right. This is prevalent in many guns, lesser or greater dependent on shooter, gun and ammo variables. Changing grips will cause changes in POI.

Shooting off the bench when load testing is sound practice. But once the gun leaves the rest the POI will probably change as well since the recoil pattern of the pistol, the weight and strength of the shooters arms, grip strength, all change movement the pistol follows in recoil. Shooting off bags by resting the wrists on the bags will lessen the amount of rested vs. freehand POI shift.

Handgun, barrel length, grip configuration and cartridge power all effect how much POI change with load change, but it is there.

 

[tony b]

bench shoot. compare to factory loads to eliminate shooter or pistol issues.

 

[kennyc01]

With everything being equal but the powder charge, yes I have seen a major difference in where the bullets groups on paper.

Starting with a gun that you know is sighted in you need to experiment with powder loads to find the best load for that gun.

This is how I find the best load

...

If needed, try the loads in the quarter you set aside.
Once you found the best load adjust sights if needed.

Keep these

Just when I almost get it right I am now running low on WST. LOL.

Damifinoish experiences mirror mine in respect to bullet impact. I've noticed this for years, bullet weight and velocity changes will effect POI in the windage as well as the elevation plane.

...

Handgun, barrel length, grip configuration and cartridge power all effect how much POI change with load change, but it is there.

Great info.. Thanks for sharing your experience and I think I loaded enough round for each spread to test shooting off the bench and offhand.

bench shoot. compare to factory loads to eliminate shooter or pistol issues.

Will try that this weekend. Thanks!

 

[Pinecone]

Actually

To eliminate shooter issues, have someone else shoot your pistol and reloads. Bench can also eliminate some shooter issues.

To eliminate pistol issues, try your reloads in another pistol.

To eliminate AMMUNITION issues, compare to factory ammo. But realize, the POI may be different. So compare group size and functioning (consistent ejection, consistent feeding, etc)

 

[vafish]

With everything being equal but the powder charge, yes I have seen a major difference in where the bullets groups on paper.

Starting with a gun that you know is sighted in you need to experiment with powder loads to find the best load for that gun.

This is how I find the best load
Split the charge range (Min - Max grains) into fourths
Discard the low & high quarter for now.
Load 15 to 20 rounds starting with the low end of the middle two quarters of charges.
Increasing the charge by .5 grain and load 15 to 20 rounds of each different charge.
Stop when you get to the high end.
Keep these loads well marked in little snack bags.
Take them to the range and shoot them into separate well marked(by powder charge) targets.
Compare for the tightest group to the center.
If needed, try the loads in the quarter you set aside.
Once you found the best load adjust sights if needed.



Keep these

Good advice for working with rifle rounds, but when dealing with a pistol round that starts at 4.1 grs and maxes out at 4.9 grs going up by .5 grs doesn't give you very many loads to try. It also approaches max load very fast. You start out at 4.1 grs, then you get 4.6 grs, then you are over max load.

I'd start at minimum or starting load and go up by .2 grs (with that small of a charge range you could actually go up by .1 grs without too much work) loading 5 rounds each to start. (5 rounds each going up by .1 grs would be less than 50 rounds) fire them off looking for signs of pressure and functioning. Use a chronograph and watch for abnormal velocities.

 

[vafish]

How does primer seating affect a FTF? Wouldnt that be an issue with the firing pin in the gun? .

FTF as in Failure To Fire

If your primer is not seated all the way then most of the firing pin energy is wasted pushing the primer forward and it doesn't hit hard enough to set off the primer. A second hit will usually set the primer off.

FTF as in Failure To Feed

A primer seated to far out will not allow the round to slide up under the extractor and will catch on the bottom of the slide as it comes out of the magazine causing a nice jam with the nose of the bullet going high.

 

[pcfixer]

I agree with the other advice too. +1 4.0 WST is a minimum load for LRN= "lead round nose" bullet. I see on http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp that jackets RN bullets can be loaded to 4.9 WST at 16,100 cup... 848 ft/s ...good load.

 

[kennyc01]

Good advice for working with rifle rounds, but when dealing with a pistol round that starts at 4.1 grs and maxes out at 4.9 grs going up by .5 grs doesn't give you very many loads to try. It also approaches max load very fast. You start out at 4.1 grs, then you get 4.6 grs, then you are over max load.

I'd start at minimum or starting load and go up by .2 grs (with that small of a charge range you could actually go up by .1 grs without too much work) loading 5 rounds each to start. (5 rounds each going up by .1 grs would be less than 50 rounds) fire them off looking for signs of pressure and functioning. Use a chronograph and watch for abnormal velocities.

I guess I made too much.

I made 20 rounds of 4.1gr to 4.6gr in .1gr increment. Can't wait to try it this weekend. I think I will load a few 4.7gr too.

FTF as in Failure To Fire

If your primer is not seated all the way then most of the firing pin energy is wasted pushing the primer forward and it doesn't hit hard enough to set off the primer. A second hit will usually set the primer off.

FTF as in Failure To Feed

A primer seated to far out will not allow the round to slide up under the extractor and will catch on the bottom of the slide as it comes out of the magazine causing a nice jam with the nose of the bullet going high.

It was failure to fire. Good point on trying it again. They were the earliest of the rounds I made ever so it could be a seating issue. I threw those round away so I did not have a chance to try refiring them. Thanks for the info.

I agree with the other advice too. +1 4.0 WST is a minimum load for LRN= "lead round nose" bullet. I see on http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp that jackets RN bullets can be loaded to 4.9 WST at 16,100 cup... 848 ft/s ...good load.

x-treme bullets are coated so I was told to stay with the load data for cast. Is that accurate?

 

[pcfixer]

I guess I made too much.

I made 20 rounds of 4.1gr to 4.6gr in .1gr increment. Can't wait to try it this weekend. I think I will load a few 4.7gr too.



It was failure to fire. Good point on trying it again. They were the earliest of the rounds I made ever so it could be a seating issue. I threw those round away so I did not have a chance to try refiring them. Thanks for the info.



x-treme bullets are coated so I was told to stay with the load data for cast.

Is that accurate?

I don't know who gave you that information! Just to be safe I would call...
If you have a safety problem or concern - DO NOT EMAIL - CALL US DIRECTLY 7:00am to 5:30pm Central Monday-Thursday :
913-362-9455

JMHO, I'd say any "coated" or plated bullets are much different that
cast lead bullets, hence the difference in load data.
Advice is to call number above, I have a number in times in the past.
Those are the experts my friend.

 

[kennyc01]

I will call them next week. Thanks for the heads up!

 

[Traveler]

Xtreme are not as large or soft as lead. They are .355, not .356 like lead.

http://www.xtremebullets.com/category-s/1952.htm

Load Info:
- Our Copper Plated Bullets can be run at mid-range jacketed velocities or higher end lead velocities. We do not recommend velocities over 1500 FPS (Feet Per Second) and only a light taper crimp.
Any velocities over 1200 FPS we recommend either our Heavy Plate Concave Base or Hollow Point products for superior accuracy. We do not recommend velocities over 1500 FPS (Feet Per Second) and only a light taper crimp.

 

[kennyc01]

I did see that. I will call Hodgdon next week to ask them about plated bullets.

Thanks!

 

[Pinecone]

All the references from plated bullets I have seen, says to use lead bullet data.

Jacketed bullets are DIFFERENT.

 

[Magnumite]

+1 ^^^^

Jacket material is tougher, generally thicker and has a higer friction coefficient than plated.

 

[Traveler]

All the references from plated bullets I have seen, says to use lead bullet data.

Jacketed bullets are DIFFERENT.

You might want to read the quotes from the manufacturers site. That is why I took the time to link and quote. Per the manufacturer.

Our Copper Plated Bullets can be run at mid-range jacketed velocities or higher end lead velocities. We do not recommend velocities over 1500 FPS (Feet Per Second) and only a light taper crimp.

 

[Pinecone]

Hmm,

higher end lead velocities

still means you can use lead bullet data.

It just means you will run into less lead fouling with the plated bullets.

 

[kennyc01]

For the people who are still following this thread.

I went to the range today and shot all of my reloads from 4.1 to 4.7 (max for cast lead)

The sweet spot for me was at 4.6 to 4.7. Much cleaner at this range than at the lower range.

I did use the bench to shoot and I am happy to report that it is not me! The higher charge the round goes lower. at round 4.6 it is at the same elevation as where I was aiming. It is still hitting to the right though. I think it's time to adjust the sight.

Thanks for all the help! I think I am close to my own recipe.