Potential legal trouble using >10-round magazine during home defense situation

[Fredcohunter]

So if you used only 2 rounds to stop a threat, wouldn't having 30 total show restraint? Sure as heck beat needing 11 and only having 10...

I don't disagree with you. I was just sharing what I do. I do what I do because it makes me comfortable.

 

[j_h_smith]

I'm going to have to ask for a case study before I believe this. There is nothing illegal in owning or using a mag with more than a 10 round capacity in Maryland. If I can own and use a 15 round mag in my Glock 17, where would I be breaking any laws if I'm defending myself with this firearm and magazine?

Talk is cheap, show me where I'm a felon.

 

[Threeband]

... If I can own and use a 15 round mag in my Glock 17, where would I be breaking any laws if I'm defending myself with this firearm and magazine?

Talk is cheap, show me where I'm a felon.

This envisions the prosecutor attempting to show you are a felon, like they did to that guy in Glen Burnie a couple years ago, like they did to George Zimmermann, like they did to Harold Fish.


This envisions a zealous prosecutor claiming you are not defending yourself, but rather committing murder.

If it's a justifiable homicide, then you're not breaking the law, but if it's not justified homicide, then you did break the law.

The question of whether or not you broke the law is decided by the jury, at the end of your trial.


DO NOT GET ME WRONG, this is a purely academic point. I don't even own any undersized magazines, (except the ten rounder that came with my M1A) : I don't think twice about this nonsense, and I'm not saying you should. Except for that ten round M1A mag, every mag I own is standard cap. (No, wait, I have some 20 round Hungarian AK mags also - remember those?)

Do you remember the guy in Glen Burnie a couple years ago? Shot the guy battering down his front door at 0-dark-thirty? They went after him with a vengeance, and I think it was a year before the charges were dropped. I don't know what size magazine he had, but this might have been before 2013.

I have 17 round magazines, and 17 round backups in my HD guns. If I ever shoot someone, I expect the circumstances to be scrutinized. I could be prosecuted. In that case, the standard magazines could be an add on charge. Why is that hard to imagine?

 

[rascal]

Also spoke to a lawyer friend. She is not a firearm law expert, but her advice is to look for precedents. If there isn't one, and prosecutor decides to add this charge, it will then force the jurisdiction system to make a decision on this matter and it will be settled for all, although the law seems to be on our side. In many cases, activists purposefully test the water and force the issue to be cleared, but in this case, obviously we can't just test it. We won't know until it happens.

Not really. Firstly there are not really serious precedents in courts of the first instance. Secondly this case, most cases are pled.

thirdly the police can't find any 30 round magazines. he is legally allowed to own and attach and use at the range 20 round magazines. apparently they found only 20 round magazines in three searches of his premises and possessions. he is allowed to possess 30 round mags, but only use 20 rounders. Apparently he has proof he traded his legally owned 30 roadrunners for a gun sling. So this case will depend on whether a officer who saw the rifle fired at the range from about 30 feet away can say for sure that he had a 30 round attached instead of a 20 round -- when no one can find any 30 round in three searches.


They are making a big deal about his perfectly legal purchased and possessed 700 rounds of ammo (people with AR buy this many on sale ALL the time) and a perfectly legal bayonet. As well as his "attempt" to buy 5,000 rounds of .22 ammo ($300 worth, also perfectly legal and not uncommon at all)

The school is even backtracking now saying he was suspended for poor grades, not for a the alleged firearms violation. Even the cops are saying ammo they took is for his "safekeeping" and not "seized."

 

[iH8DemLibz]

MGA could push any law down our throats they chose to but haven't. Why?

Because democrats also owning guns, for self protection, is the only reason I've ever come up with.

The MGA will infringe. But if they infringe too much, some of their supporters may not be happy with the results.

Especially if a family member or friend gets killed over these bullshyt laws.

 

[j_h_smith]

This envisions the prosecutor attempting to show you are a felon, like they did to that guy in Glen Burnie a couple years ago, like they did to George Zimmermann, like they did to Harold Fish.


This envisions a zealous prosecutor claiming you are not defending yourself, but rather committing murder.

If it's a justifiable homicide, then you're not breaking the law, but if it's not justified homicide, then you did break the law.

The question of whether or not you broke the law is decided by the jury, at the end of your trial.


DO NOT GET ME WRONG, this is a purely academic point. I don't even own any undersized magazines, (except the ten rounder that came with my M1A) : I don't think twice about this nonsense, and I'm not saying you should. Except for that ten round M1A mag, every mag I own is standard cap. (No, wait, I have some 20 round Hungarian AK mags also - remember those?)

Do you remember the guy in Glen Burnie a couple years ago? Shot the guy battering down his front door at 0-dark-thirty? They went after him with a vengeance, and I think it was a year before the charges were dropped. I don't know what size magazine he had, but this might have been before 2013.

I have 17 round magazines, and 17 round backups in my HD guns. If I ever shoot someone, I expect the circumstances to be scrutinized. I could be prosecuted. In that case, the standard magazines could be an add on charge. Why is that hard to imagine?

What does the number of rounds your firearm hold if the prosecutor is wanted to prove a point. Did any of those folks empty their +10 round mags? I don't know. But I doubt the number of rounds in your mag had anything to do with that part.

I'm sorry, I may be wrong but I don't see a problem using any mag with any amount of ammo loading in that mag. If they want you they will find charges to arrest you.

 

[Threeband]

If they want you they will find charges to arrest you.

Yes, and the 15 round magazine could be one of the charges.

It's only going to stick if they can make the underlying "bad shoot" charge stick.

If they go after you like they went after that guy in Glen Burnie, then an add-on charge for using a 15 round magazine is going to be a minor point. This is just academic. I'm not suggesting anyone change their behavior. I just think it's entirely unremarkable.

The law says using a plus ten round mag in the commission of a crime is itself an additional crime. We say, "Oh, that only applies to criminals. I'm not a criminal." But if you shoot a burglar, they can try to argue that you are a criminal. Like they did to that guy in Glen Burnie. Like they did to George Zimmerman. Like they did to Harold Fish. They can claim you committed a crime. In theory, they could make it stick.

 

[j_h_smith]

Yes, and the 15 round magazine could be one of the charges.

It's only going to stick if they can make the underlying "bad shoot" charge stick.

If they go after you like they went after that guy in Glen Burnie, then an add-on charge for using a 15 round magazine is going to be a minor point. This is just academic. I'm not suggesting anyone change their behavior. I just think it's entirely unremarkable.

The law says using a plus ten round mag in the commission of a crime is itself an additional crime. We say, "Oh, that only applies to criminals. I'm not a criminal." But if you shoot a burglar, they can try to argue that you are a criminal. Like they did to that guy in Glen Burnie. Like they did to George Zimmerman. Like they did to Harold Fish. They can claim you committed a crime. In theory, they could make it stick.

Show me where there is a law being violated. That's all I'm asking. Where is there a statute that says I can't use a mag with more than 10 round capacity to defend myself, even using deadly force. What law are you speaking about? Each state has it's own laws you can't equate what happened to Zimmerman or Fish. We're talking about Maryland law, aren't we?

 

[danb]

Glad to see people with more BGOS than me, and I have a lot.

OP has nothing to do with using >10 rounds in a self defense scenario. It has to do with an obscure VA law pertaining to non citizens.

I predict my attempt to re-rail the thread will be ignored.

Keep calm and carry one...30 round clipazine that is.

 

[Doctor_M]

Is there any more prejudice on my part if I shoot an intruder with 11 rounds of 9mm vs once with a .45/70?

 

[danb]

What if I shoot them 35 times with my 0.9 mm??

 

[Firedog1979]

Interesting question. Does this only apply to D.C. permit holders or anyone within the boundaries of D.C.? Changing to a 10 round mag at the border would not be an option as you would still be in possession of a larger capacity magazine.

How would this work under FOPA if only transporting?



We need a GPS for firearms. "The current magazine limit is 20. You are now approaching a 10 round limit."

Options: Avoid routes that have Democrat snowflake majorities.

ECA (estimated capacity at arrival) no limit...........

That’s a really good question....I’d like to know myself...as far as transporting I don’t know how that would work...interesting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[iH8DemLibz]

What's the penalty for converting an XD9 to belt feed and shooting a bad guy holding an unlit Molotov cocktail within your curtilage?

 

[Threeband]

No BGOS.

There is a provision in FSA2013 that makes it illegal to use a 10+ mag in commission of a crime. That's no BGOS.

Forget about it. That's not important.

Simple non-BGOS fact is, if you shoot a burglar, you can be charged with a crime. I have repeatedly mentioned three DGUs which were prosecuted. Harold Fish convicted.
Simple fact. Do you seriously think it's BGOS to be aware of that?

A bad shoot is a crime. A court of law determines good or bad shoot. That's not BGOS either. Does anyone here think otherwise?


I am not making an issue of this. I'm just answering the OP' s question.

By the way, an infinite number of angels can dance on the head of a pin, and a tree falling in a forest makes no sound if no brain is there to process the vibrations.

And I do not have BGOS.

 

[iH8DemLibz]

No BGOS.

There is a provision in FSA2013 that makes it illegal to use a 10+ mag in commission of a crime. That's no BGOS.

Forget about it. That's not important.

Simple non-BGOS fact is, if you shoot a burglar, you can be charged with a crime. I have repeatedly mentioned three DGUs which were prosecuted. Harold Fish convicted.
Simple fact. Do you seriously think it's BGOS to be aware of that?

A bad shoot is a crime. A court of law determines good or bad shoot. That's not BGOS either. Does anyone here think otherwise?


I am not making an issue of this. I'm just answering the OP' s question.

By the way, an infinite number of angels can dance on the head of a pin, and a tree falling in a forest makes no sound if no brain is there to process the vibrations.

And I do not have BGOS.

But it's a crime after the self defense incident occurs.

Robbing a bank is a crime before the incident occurs.

You're not in the commission of a crime when you shoot someone with a 10+ round magazine.

You are in commission of a crime when you rob a bank with a 10+ round magazine.

.02

 

[Threeband]

I agree. I never said otherwise.
I was just answering the question in the OP. It's all academic and hypothetical. I use standard 17 round mags.

I cannot understand why anyone thinks what I posted is controversial or reflects BGOS, unless they are very naive.

So that's settled, n'est pas?

Now, what about that tree falling on those dancing angels?

 

[j_h_smith]

No BGOS.

There is a provision in FSA2013 that makes it illegal to use a 10+ mag in commission of a crime. That's no BGOS.

Forget about it. That's not important.

Simple non-BGOS fact is, if you shoot a burglar, you can be charged with a crime. I have repeatedly mentioned three DGUs which were prosecuted. Harold Fish convicted.
Simple fact. Do you seriously think it's BGOS to be aware of that?

A bad shoot is a crime. A court of law determines good or bad shoot. That's not BGOS either. Does anyone here think otherwise?


I am not making an issue of this. I'm just answering the OP' s question.

By the way, an infinite number of angels can dance on the head of a pin, and a tree falling in a forest makes no sound if no brain is there to process the vibrations.

And I do not have BGOS.

You are correct that there is mention of using a mag with 10+ rounds in the commission of a crime, but those crimes are spelled out in Md Code of law 5-101. Those crime inlcude the following.

(1) abduction;

(2) arson in the first degree;

(3) assault in the first or second degree;

(4) burglary in the first, second, or third degree;

(5) carjacking and armed carjacking;

(6) escape in the first degree;

(7) kidnapping;

(8) voluntary manslaughter;

(9) maiming as previously proscribed under former Article 27, § 386 of the Code;

(10) mayhem as previously proscribed under former Article 27, § 384 of the Code;

(11) murder in the first or second degree;

(12) rape in the first or second degree;

(13) robbery;

(14) robbery with a dangerous weapon;

(15) sexual offense in the first, second, or third degree;

(16) home invasion under § 6–202(b) of the Criminal Law Article;

(17) an attempt to commit any of the crimes listed in items (1) through (16) of this subsection; or

(18) assault with intent to commit any of the crimes listed in items (1) through (16) of this subsection or a crime punishable by imprisonment for more than 1 year.

Sure, if an AG wants to prosecute you for any of these crimes, then you could be charged with using a hi cap mag in the commission of that crime. But that's the least of your worries.

If you are involved in a good shoot, you're not going to be charged with using a hi cap mag.

I hope the calms your nerves.

 

[rascal]

Interesting question. Does this only apply to D.C. permit holders or anyone within the boundaries of D.C.? Changing to a 10 round mag at the border would not be an option as you would still be in possession of a larger capacity magazine.
How would this work under FOPA if only transporting?

ANYONE. It is already its own primary offense to simply possess a magazine over ten rounds in DC before even good cause only carry licences was allowed in DC. If you were carrying one loaded with your permit you would lose your permit, lose your registration, probably lose your gun ownership privilege in your own state.

Additionally despite the BS "John Lott" map misrepresenting where you can carry, in the case of a >10 round magazine then the 1,000' double penalty enhancement would come into play and there is a good chance you would be within that the offense would be converted to a felony with double jail and fine.

so that just leaves the FOPA question. FOPA is not just transporting you must be transporting from one place where you can legally possess to another place where you can. The route has to be reasonable and you have to prove this, and any stops have to be reasonable and necessary.

If you have a 30 round magazine locked in your trunk and you are going from Va to PA and can prove it, and make no stops that are not reasonable and necessary, a route through Md or even DC is covered under FOPA. But a stop where you would invoke FOPA you want to keep your mouth SHUT. Yous sure would not say: "I am going from Maryland where my 12 round mag is legal to DC where I inserted my 10 round mag and where I have a CCL and put them into the trunk, and am going back to to Maryland where it is legal" -- cause that is likely NOT covered under FOPA and you will be up for a primary offense for having the unloaded 12 round mag in your locked trunk.

FOPA does NOT apply for a trip in and out of a jurisdiction and back to same starting point that disallows the firearm or mag. You can drive down the west side highway in NYC from Vermont to Florida, but you can NOT drive from your home NJ to NYC and then back to your home in NJ and expect FOPA

 

[rascal]

If you are involved in a good shoot, you're not going to be charged with using a hi cap mag..

Depending on how a jurisdiction writes the law. In DC possession is its own offense and you could easily be persecuted for >10 or for an unregistered firearm even if your use of it was a) found by a jury to be justifiable homicide; or b) your use of the gun was so clearly justifies as to not even be prosecuted.

 

[Threeband]

You are correct.
...

I hope the calms your nerves.

Good. We agree.

You have succinctly summarized my points. Thank you.

Now where the hell do you get this "calm your nerves " ?

You need to work on your reading comprehension.