Poll: Are Suicide Attempts Enough to Take Your Guns?

[teratos]

I do all I can to convince them to not off themselves, and hope for the best. I'm not going to go ask bullies with guns to go force himself to do something he doesn't want to do under the threat of violence. That's what assholes and Democrats do. (Sorry for the redundancy)



I don't trust doctors either. Again, we know how the AMA as an organization feels about guns. My natural rights aren't subject to any other individual's discretion, no matter how "qualified" they are to judge me. If the person is really so unhinged and crazy that they are a legitimate threat to society, lock them up and/or institutionalize them as appropriate, which disarms them anyway. Otherwise, suicidal != homicidal, and it's not my place nor anyone else's to force them to do or not do anything.

SO, now your best friend is dead. Don't worry, you did your best....Suicidal people are not rational people. They are seriously mentally ill. If you can keep them alive long enough to get treatment, most will do quite well, and recover fully

Doctors do not equal the AMA. Some are gun grabbing lunatics. If you don't trust doctors in general, I feel bad for you.

There are a lot of slippery slopes here. I agree, having the gov confiscate firearms is not ideal. That opens a huge can of worms. Even if you can get your buddy into a mental health facility, it may impair his ability to buy regulated firearms in the future. I do see your points, and I think they are valid concerns.

 

[Lex Armarum]

Again KEEP IT CIVIL!!!!

There is no correct answer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOUR OPINION IS NOT THE ONLY ANSWER TO THIS!!!

I can't make that any clearer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Who's being uncivil?

 

[tzoid]

Noel...It seems that the same people keep calling names and acting like Jerkoffs..... Funny how behind a keyboard some have balls so big they have to ride shotgun....


Stop the Name Calling and trying to squelch other opinions....It just shows how Big a Douche you are..

 

[MDFF2008]

SO, now your best friend is dead. Don't worry, you did your best....Suicidal people are not rational people. They are seriously mentally ill. If you can keep them alive long enough to get treatment, most will do quite well, and recover fully

Doctors do not equal the AMA. Some are gun grabbing lunatics. If you don't trust doctors in general, I feel bad for you.

There are a lot of slippery slopes here. I agree, having the gov confiscate firearms is not ideal. That opens a huge can of worms. Even if you can get your buddy into a mental health facility, it may impair his ability to buy regulated firearms in the future. I do see your points, and I think they are valid concerns.

I know your in the mental health field, but I just have to second what you said.

One of my best friends was taken to a mental hospital by two MA state troopers. She truly believed that there was no point in life and she even said it was her right to die.

4 years later she is happily engaged, going to school and living on her own. To this day I believe the reason I was drawn to the National Student Exchange was to lead up to this event.

Yes, I admit it is a terribly slippery slope but sometimes we have to put our petons in the slope and hold fast.

I have a huge issue with people loosing their guns forever though. The process exists for a reason. It sickens me that people would abuse it; but I wouldn't throw out the whole system.

 

[tzoid]

:

Who's being uncivil?

Being accused of being a Democrat because you don't agree with the "NO" answer or having someone say voting "YES" means you want MD to be a Nanny state........read the thread......it's spattered throughout the thread.

I read your reply to my post and I see your points and see that my initial response could be prolematic so I agree to disagree and maybe would even change my vote. Being called a Liberal kinda pisses me off.

 

[fivepointstar]

Noel...It seems that the same people keep calling names and acting like Jerkoffs..... Funny how behind a keyboard some have balls so big they have to ride shotgun....


Stop the Name Calling and trying to squelch other opinions....It just shows how Big a Douche you are..

I"m just trying to moderate my own thread.

Its an almost even split as I thought it would be. theres no need to attack anothers opinion because its obvious 1/2 of use feel the same way andthe other 1/2 don't.

 

[mike_in_md]

EP's are like revolving doors....we've EP the same person 2x's. They just have to know what to say to a doctor to get out of the hospital then they'll be out in a few hours.

i know what your saying though.

The Doctor doing the psych eval should be smart enough to at least figure if someone is suicidal, that's why they get paid the big bucks. I do think getting an EP on somebody does help make that somebody confront their issues and that can help them accept some form of treatment down the road in most cases, even if it's greater family support. Otherwise, the consequences of not correcting causes of issues has a way of catching up with you.

 

[MD=What 2nd Amendment?]

I still can't believe how many people on this board condone using the force of government to disarm individuals that have committed no crime.

Being mentally ill is not a crime either but it is enough to prevent the purchase of a firearm.

Noone said take guns away from accused that haven't been convicted.

So a paranoid schizophrenic who has been involuntarily hospitalized should in your eyes be able to buy a gun. They aren't criminals.

 

[Brychan]

Maybe something was left out of the BoR ...Shall not be infringed, unless you have mental health problems, or some low level government official thinks you do. There I fixed it.

 

[Ethan83]

So a paranoid schizophrenic who has been involuntarily hospitalized should in your eyes be able to buy a gun. They aren't criminals.

Correct. I also think that felons should be have their 2A rights restored when they're released from prison. If they can't handle their 2A rights, they should probably still be institutionalized, whether it's in a prison for a criminal or a hospital for an insane person. It's a question of whether they are a danger to society or not - if they are, they should remain locked up. If they're not, then who are we to restrict their 2A rights. It's not like a felon or a schizo can't drive a car into a crowd of people or assault an individual with a knife; if they're likely to do either of those things, they shouldn't have been released in the first place.

 

[RosadoSM]

Keep in mind if you are in the hospital getting better for greater than 30 days you will never be able to buy a hand gun or regulated firearm in the state again. Another issue...

If you are under the age of 18 and depressed, you may be involuntarily committed to a hospital for treatment. Believe it or not a lot of kids say they want to die at some point or another...in a lot of cases they are being over dramatic (sometimes not) and reacting to temp situation. If the wrong person hears them say that.... well away you go.

This will have a lasting effect on the rest of their lives in MD. The MD form you sign allows the MSP to look at your med records when you were a minor. Don't sign the form, no hand gun/regulated. Sign the form get disapproved and likely prosecuted for "illegally" trying to purchase a regulated/handgun.

All of the examples I've given have taken place and in some case to members on this board. If somebody is truly mentally ill treated and deemed GTG by a doctor, there rights should not be infringed.

Btw because somebody is suicidal does not mean they’re homicidal. I find it interesting some of the opinions here. I'm willing to bet a great number of people have thought of suicide at some point in their life, even if only for a few moments. Does that mean you have a mental issue? Does that mean your rights as a law abiding citizen be forever restricted?

Ever notice how many "depression" pills are hawked in commercials these days... I bet everyone knows somebody taking "happy" pills (Zoloft, Prozac, Paxil, Cymbalta...) the list is huge. Ask yourself why so many doctors prescribe these pills? Most of which ARE not Psychiatrist but normal family doctors.

People who are suicidal and truly want to end it all will. Be it a fire arm or some other means. I have known more than a few folks who have taken their lives. Only one with a fire arm, he was a convicted felon btw… yet was able to obtain a 30 06.

Just my .02 and some stuff to consider.

 

[teratos]

The Doctor doing the psych eval should be smart enough to at least figure if someone is suicidal, that's why they get paid the big bucks. I do think getting an EP on somebody does help make that somebody confront their issues and that can help them accept some form of treatment down the road in most cases, even if it's greater family support. Otherwise, the consequences of not correcting causes of issues has a way of catching up with you.

Not the case at all. Some of these people know the system very well. People who are truly suicidal and have settled on the idea that they are going to end their own life are often very calm and appear very rational. They reach a sort of "peace" with the idea that they will soon be free of their psychological hell. They are complacent, and sometime appear even happy. Doctors are not mind readers. I agree that sometimes just getting the process started (the EP) is the single most important step. Friends and family will find out, and give support, and this can make all the difference in the world.

 

[RosadoSM]

Correct. I also think that felons should be have their 2A rights restored when they're released from prison. If they can't handle their 2A rights, they should probably still be institutionalized, whether it's in a prison for a criminal or a hospital for an insane person. It's a question of whether they are a danger to society or not - if they are, they should remain locked up. If they're not, then who are we to restrict their 2A rights. It's not like a felon or a schizo can't drive a car into a crowd of people or assault an individual with a knife; if they're likely to do either of those things, they shouldn't have been released in the first place.

Agree

 

[teratos]

Correct. I also think that felons should be have their 2A rights restored when they're released from prison. If they can't handle their 2A rights, they should probably still be institutionalized, whether it's in a prison for a criminal or a hospital for an insane person. It's a question of whether they are a danger to society or not - if they are, they should remain locked up. If they're not, then who are we to restrict their 2A rights. It's not like a felon or a schizo can't drive a car into a crowd of people or assault an individual with a knife; if they're likely to do either of those things, they shouldn't have been released in the first place.

Wow. You haven't been around many schizophrenics, have you? Jared Loughner is a good example.

They should be institutionalized if they can't handle their 2A rights

That is not "least restrictive". There are plenty of people who are mentally ill who absolutely should not have a firearm. They live happily in the community, have jobs etc. They do require some supervision, but do a hell of a lot better living in the community than they would in a government run institution. Interesting that you have a huge problem with taking away someone's 2A rights, but have no problems with the government confining them to an institution where ALL of their rights are now nullified.

 

[RosadoSM]

Wow. You haven't been around many schizophrenics, have you? Jared Loughner is a good example.

They should be institutionalized if they can't handle their 2A rights
That is not "least restrictive". There are plenty of people who are mentally ill who absolutely should not have a firearm. They live happily in the community, have jobs etc. They do require some supervision, but do a hell of a lot better living in the community than they would in a government run institution. Interesting that you have a huge problem with taking away someone's 2A rights, but have no problems with the government confining them to an institution where ALL of their rights are now nullified.

Wouldn't that be reason enough? Clearly Jared wasn't living happily in society... he had a history of being a whack job. Somebody obviously missed something with that kid, as they did with Seung-Hui Cho.

 

[teratos]

Ever notice how many "depression" pills are hawked in commercials these days... I bet everyone knows somebody taking "happy" pills (Zoloft, Prozac, Paxil, Cymbalta...) the list is huge. Ask yourself why so many doctors prescribe these pills? Most of which ARE not Psychiatrist but normal family doctors.

You are correct. There is a huge industry built up around depression. I am an internist, and guilty of prescribing said drugs. Most of the people who take these medications are not severely depressed. Our society is increasingly reliant on medication to help them "deal" with what life throws at them. I suspect we will see more of it, since our school systems and sports teams are geared toward making everyone feel like they are a winner. When they get out there in the real world, they will be overwhelmed. Then they will "need a pill". Do they help people feel better? Some do. I get a lot of people who have multiple stressors (lost their job, going through a divorce, have typical teen children, sick parents - all at the same time) and think there is a medication that can help. Not so much.

There are not nearly enough psychiatrists around to treat people. We "normal family doctors" find ourselves having to treat depression, anxiety etc. It usually is pretty straight forward. The mental health system is so lacking, I also treat Bipolar disorder, and schizophrenia. I try not to, but sometimes it is best for the patient at that point in time.

 

[teratos]

Wouldn't that be reason enough? Clearly Jared wasn't living happily in society... he had a history of being a whack job. Somebody obviously missed something with that kid, as they did with Seung-Hui Cho.

Yes, they did. What if people HAD caught them early and they were diagnosed with schizophrenia. You agreed with a post above which said that people with schizophrenia SHOULD be allowed to buy firearms. They can be treated and improve significantly. To the point where they are no longer a danger to themselves or others. One of the problems with this patient group is that they will often stop their medication on their own. Then they are in trouble. Again, institutionalizing all of these patients is the government taking away ALL of their rights, instead of just some of them. If you are against just taking away people's guns, you should really be against this. These people generally function well in society when they are properly medicated. Institutionalization is also expensive. (We are getting a little off topic here).

 

[RosadoSM]

You are correct. There is a huge industry built up around depression. I am an internist, and guilty of prescribing said drugs. Most of the people who take these medications are not severely depressed. Our society is increasingly reliant on medication to help them "deal" with what life throws at them. I suspect we will see more of it, since our school systems and sports teams are geared toward making everyone feel like they are a winner. When they get out there in the real world, they will be overwhelmed. Then they will "need a pill". Do they help people feel better? Some do. I get a lot of people who have multiple stressors (lost their job, going through a divorce, have typical teen children, sick parents - all at the same time) and think there is a medication that can help. Not so much.

There are not nearly enough psychiatrists around to treat people. We "normal family doctors" find ourselves having to treat depression, anxiety etc. It usually is pretty straight forward. The mental health system is so lacking, I also treat Bipolar disorder, and schizophrenia. I try not to, but sometimes it is best for the patient at that point in time.

100% agree. If a non specialist... PCP prescribes anti depressants I assume they diagnose a mental issue (depression, anxiety)? Can they also sign off as a mental health doctor to clear someone as not a mental nut job if the want to purchase a firearm?

 

[RosadoSM]

Yes, they did. What if people HAD caught them early and they were diagnosed with schizophrenia. You agreed with a post above which said that people with schizophrenia SHOULD be allowed to buy firearms. They can be treated and improve significantly. To the point where they are no longer a danger to themselves or others. One of the problems with this patient group is that they will often stop their medication on their own. Then they are in trouble. Again, institutionalizing all of these patients is the government taking away ALL of their rights, instead of just some of them. If you are against just taking away people's guns, you should really be against this. These people generally function well in society when they are properly medicated. Institutionalization is also expensive. (We are getting a little off topic here).

True, I was agreeing with the criminal part (should have made that clear). If you are deemed to be GTG be it criminally or mentally you rights shouldn't be restricted. If in fact you are a known Schizo, well that's different. Maybe I'm wrong but wouldn't that mean you're not GTG mentally?

You're right we are off subject. My bad.

 

[Srsanbo]

Wow. You haven't been around many schizophrenics, have you? Jared Loughner is a good example.

They should be institutionalized if they can't handle their 2A rights
That is not "least restrictive". There are plenty of people who are mentally ill who absolutely should not have a firearm. They live happily in the community, have jobs etc. They do require some supervision, but do a hell of a lot better living in the community than they would in a government run institution. Interesting that you have a huge problem with taking away someone's 2A rights, but have no problems with the government confining them to an institution where ALL of their rights are now nullified.

Which is it? Loughner clearly should not have been running around freely.

If such a person is in public, they can get their hands on whatever they want to cause harm to themselves or others despite "supervision". In such a case, where someone is determined to be suicidal, homicidal, whatever... "taking away" their 2A rights does what exactly? Exactly what it does for criminals and others we don't want armed - it makes it inconvenient in that they can't use their own firearms.

I think many here are just arguing that removing firearms is a slippery slope as it can be subjectively applied to just about anyone when based on criteria put forth by imperfect people practicing imperfect science.