PGT&S Fuddism

[44man]

Yes, cause that is the same thing happening here...

i know its not the same thing but apparently they have rules, right or wrong, and they are simply standing by them. i see some posts here talking about suing, ada lawsuits, boycotts,ect. what a crock. the goobermint wants us to disappear into the sunset, well sue a place run by the county goobermint, and then they close up and or sell the place and make it private with even more rules. what is accomplished then??

i just dont see what the big problem is. they have rules. if people dont like them , then complain. all this other rigamaroll is silly. they change their rules, good, if not, meh...what is the worst thing that happens, people find another place to shoot, no big deal.

and PG county having rules and people being called fudds...well i just dont understand.

 

[Boxcab]

there is a lot of hyperbole here. I can say this: I like that facility. I think its a wonderful place, and I am very happy that it is close to my home. I swear, if someone SUES it out of existence, I will find their house and do a slip and fall.

For gods sake we're all on the same side of the fence whats with the damned bickering? I agree, phone call all you want if it bugs you. Please, expressing your opinion (RESPECTFULLY) is the point of living in america. But lawsuits? For shame.

So, we should shut up and go with the flow so as not to inconvenience you. Gotcha.

If you are forced to be inconvenienced you will commit fraud in order to extract retribution. Gotcha.

Handicap people, stay off the publicly run range (and don't sue for the access), soco can't be bothered with your special needs. Gotcha.

It's the American way. Gotcha.

 

[ShallNotInfringe]

i know its not the same thing but apparently they have rules, right or wrong, and they are simply standing by them. i see some posts here talking about suing, ada lawsuits, boycotts,ect. what a crock. the goobermint wants us to disappear into the sunset, well sue a place run by the county goobermint, and then they close up and or sell the place and make it private with even more rules. what is accomplished then??

i just dont see what the big problem is. they have rules. if people dont like them , then complain. all this other rigamaroll is silly. they change their rules, good, if not, meh...what is the worst thing that happens, people find another place to shoot, no big deal.

and PG county having rules and people being called fudds...well i just dont understand.

We should start at the forum that sets the rules/policy to affect this change. A reasonable presentation should solve it. No need for lawsuits or suing the place.

 

[44man]

We should start at the forum that sets the rules/policy to affect this change. A reasonable presentation should solve it. No need for lawsuits or suing the place.

now this i understand. no name calling, no yelling at the help, no threats of lawsuits or boycotts, just a plain old common sense answer. this approach may just work. thank you SNI.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Remember, they recieved this without any cost to the County. Wouldn't hurt their feelings to have a soccer complex with a nice clubhouse/ Community Center there instead. It's not like they have any investment to protect.

 

[pbharvey]

Handicap people, stay off the publicly run range

There's a difference between a handicapped person wanting to use a PG stock being turned away and wanting to go find a handicapped person to complain about not being able to use a PG stock so that they change the range rules. I'd guess that if a handicapped person rolled in to PGT&S with Smokey's gun they'd bend over backwards to make sure you have a good time, the same way they do when I take my youngest son there with his older brother's "illegal" youth gun.

 

[smokey]

i just dont see what the big problem is. they have rules. if people dont like them , then complain. all this other rigamaroll is silly. they change their rules, good, if not, meh...what is the worst thing that happens, people find another place to shoot, no big deal.

and PG county having rules and people being called fudds...well i just dont understand.

....umm...isn't that what I'm doing? They have rules, I don't like them, I complained...I was treated rudely by management so I shared my experience on a social gun forum. Now I can continue up the chain to find a decision-maker capable of changing things. If enough support is shown on here to allow pistol-grip collapseable stocks, that would help me when presenting my argument to that(those) higher-level decision maker(s). In the meantime, I'll find another place to shoot where jenni and I can share my gun.

As far as the fudd things. I already explained how this threat title came to be in a prior comment in here. Gunworld associates the term "fudd" with people that are fine with modern guns being banned as long as they can keep their shotgun for sporting and hunting. It seems to apply in this case specifically to PGT&S. I already clarified that it in no way extends to clay shooters(I am a clay shooter, so that's kind've silly), or hunters as groups of people.

Again, I'm not advocating the use of an AR or Taurus judge for clay shooting. I even said I can understand the 23" barrel requirement because, as others mentioned, there are noise considerations for safety. I'm specifically arguing for the ability to be able to use shoulder-mounted stocks with different ergonomics, like my archangel collapseable pistol-grip stock, and to not have them banned because a decision-maker is elitist or has some bigotry towards modern guns.

Do I want PGT&S shut down? No. All I want is this uneducated, elitist nonsense that resulted in this type of stock being banned to go away. If I, and others like me, are free to use stocks like this then I will be happy and will continue shooting there. I don't even care if the rude manager is still there, because I generally just go in, buy a book or a SC card and then go shoot. I normally wouldn't really have any interaction with him anyway. That is all.

 

[campns]

IMHO.. i think both sides should look from each other sides. The old Fogey is more concerned with how if someone is seen using an "Assault Shotgun" while the OP is more concerned with this is not in the rules so WTF! The truth of the matter both parties are worried about the state of 2A rights in maryland and want to preserve them. Clays and trap is a rich man's sport anyway.

If it was me i would and do leave my shotgun in the case at my truck while i get my card, nobody says anything then. or i would have ponied up the $10 to rent a nice B-gun semi auto.

But hey that's me and i hate burning gas just because.

 

[JMintzer]

I think Mark is still the manager who overseas everything. Morgan is one of the assistant managers last I heard.
I believe this situation is more about image than anything else. They don't want anything that could make them look bad. Remember who owns the facility and where it is located . We are lucky to have a facility like this in this crappy state. Where else can you go shoot bunker or international skeet along with all the other shotgun games.

This...

Morgan is well known to be a PITA...

I've been shooting there for several years and I've seen ZERO elitism. If you can shoot, you can shoot, period!

I've been outshot by people with 20 yo pump actions, and I've outshot people with $20K Kreigoffs. All are welcome.

I've not seen anything posted about pistol grips, but there has been an increase in hooliganism of late. I typically shoot with the same guys every Saturday, and we're constantly seeing unsafe shooters, and guys being just asshats in general. We politely try to point out their errors, but it does get frustrating at times...

Try calling back and speak with Mark. He's there on the weekends, for sure.

 

[Mr H]

One thing for the folks wanting to go up and up the ladder.

Yes, this should be raised as a concern, and attempt to change it, but there may be a point of diminishing returns.

The facility is run by the Maryland National Capital Parks & Planning Commission. You may think "no big deal", and I'd love to agree...

But, we need to remember that MNCPPC is the group that cowed to pressure after the Newtown hysteria, and effectively killed gun shows in PG County (and maybe the entire DC metro area).

 

[smokey]

IMHO.. i think both sides should look from each other sides. The old Fogey is more concerned with how if someone is seen using an "Assault Shotgun" while the OP is more concerned with this is not in the rules so WTF! The truth of the matter both parties are worried about the state of 2A rights in maryland and want to preserve them. Clays and trap is a rich man's sport anyway.

If it was me i would and do leave my shotgun in the case at my truck while i get my card, nobody says anything then. or i would have ponied up the $10 to rent a nice B-gun semi auto.

But hey that's me and i hate burning gas just because.

What is an assault shotgun?

 

[ShallNotInfringe]

One thing for the folks wanting to go up and up the ladder.

Yes, this should be raised as a concern, and attempt to change it, but there may be a point of diminishing returns.

The facility is run by the Maryland National Capital Parks & Planning Commission. You may think "no big deal", and I'd love to agree...

But, we need to remember that MNCPPC is the group that cowed to pressure after the Newtown hysteria, and effectively killed gun shows in PG County (and maybe the entire DC metro area).

So basically - hush up and accept any random infringements the "overlords" see fit to impose or risk losing the use of the facility?

Today, they don't want pistol grips there, tomorrow they don't want what? Pistol grips are legal in MD.

Then they reallocate some of the facility to tennis and the players don't like the blasts coming from the other side...

 

[Mr H]

So basically - hush up and accept any random infringements the "overlords" see fit to impose or risk losing the use of the facility?

Today, they don't want pistol grips there, tomorrow they don't want what? Pistol grips are legal in MD.

Then they reallocate some of the facility to tennis and the players don't like the blasts coming from the other side...

I'll repeat for clarity...

Yes, this should be raised as a concern, and attempt to change it, but there may be a point of diminishing returns.

Just saying to be aware and proceed accordingly.

Hard-assed and inflexible could be a problem. Engaging and presenting valid options is better.

Running away is stupid.

 

[STeveZ]

....but there has been an increase in hooliganism of late. I typically shoot with the same guys every Saturday, and we're constantly seeing unsafe shooters, and guys being just asshats in general.

This I think. I don't think its elitism per se, or political correctness, and I don't think the safety issue is specific to the pistol grip. I think regular clay shooters see idiotic and unsafe behavior at the range and it often coincides with short-barreled pistol-gripped shotguns not well suited to wing shooting, and handled by inexperienced shooters. Not always, and not the OP, but regularly.

How a "regular" stock and 28" barrel makes these shooters safer, I don't know. I guess it makes them safer by sending them elsewhere. I guess PGTS figures these shooters are one-and-dones and would just as soon they busted caps at a less populated rifle range or cow pasture.

 

[smokey]

I'll repeat for clarity...



Just saying to be aware and proceed accordingly.

Hard-assed and inflexible could be a problem. Engaging and presenting valid options is better.

Running away is stupid.

yup, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar....unfortunately in maryland there is a prevalence of bullsh!t coming from the antis...which flies love most of all.

I do recognize the way to go about this situation is to attempt to look at this as a teachable moment for the decision maker. Part of going public with my experience is to see how many people out there feel that this policy is a bad one. It gives my argument to them more weight if there is an entire community behind it to validate that my feelings are mainstream and not some radical fringe. I also understand that yelling, screaming, and pointing fingers will close doors, whereas a polite and businesslike tone will encourage dialogue.

With morgan, I attempted to have a polite discussion with him to inform him of the potential ergonomic applications for this type of stock. Mid-sentence in the first thing I was saying, I was cut-off and told that their policy is they aren't allowed there. I continued to attempt to have a discussion with him, but things turned sour and downward spiraled as he became more rude to me.

Hopefully Mark and those above will be more receptive to a discussion for the merits of this piece of equipment, or at least will be able to articulate a valid reason for why this type of stock is banned. I've yet to hear anything other than, "that looks scary".

People are scared of the unknown. Seeing these types of stocks at ranges will normalize and mainstream them. You guys remember what happened when a young girl mentioned that adjustable stocks are necessary equipment for her to compete in her shooting sport back in annapolis? Her single testimony completely changed the minds of many of our legislators regarding collapseable stocks and sb281 because they saw a sporting application for them. Suddenly they weren't scary and nefarious, but were used by high school girls trying to shoot their way to a college scholarship.

Right now attitudes like what was articulated to me at PGT&S are creating a feedback loop. Things like collapseable stocks and pistol-grip stocks are viewed as nefarious "assault-shotgun" accessories by people that claim they have no sporting purpose. Becuase of this attitude, sporting facilities like PGT&S ban them...thus preventing them from being used in a sporting application and continuing the whole shabang.

Now if they were commonly used in sporting facilities for people to see, they would become as normalized as semi-automatic shotguns with polymer stocks and handguards. How would legislators argue they have no sporting purpose when pictures and videos of them being used are all over the place?

 

[Bountied]

Everyone is out to get you! They are infringing on our 2A rights by not letting us shoot our pistol grip shotguns! OK, you don't like it. Fine. For me personally I don't give a crap and I would never take a pistol grip shotgun to a sporting clay range nor would I hunt with one. The OP has a problem with this, fine. I don't care and I don't think it's a 2A issue or a "scary black gun" issue either. I've never seen a professional/recreational clay shooter with any kind of colapsible/pistol stock. I have seen them with adjustable LOP and comb height.

This is a policy at this range and I agree that if you don't like it you should speak up, which is what is going on. I feel like a more appropriate forum would be to go to a county council meeting or talk to the person in charge of park and rec however.

Maybe Locke Raven will let you shoot there?

Bicker away...

 

[ShallNotInfringe]

Being relatively new around here, I really don't understand the term "fudd". A few folks have attempted to explain it, but I still don't understand it.

Is it a gun owner that takes the attitude that they don't care about YOUR rights, and they only care about keeping what THEY have? Maybe someone could elaborate what it means, since it is thrown around plenty here on MDS.

Since the thread title contains this term, maybe it's meant as a derogatory term that gets things moving in the wrong direction from the start...

Anyway, I support the OP in his dismay over the PGTS policy, believe he came to the right place to seek support and will support him in affecting a change in their policy - if the plan he puts forth is reasonable. If he needs people to go to council meeting and sit behind him while presenting stock options/pleading his argument, I will be there. It's the people's range and we have the right to ask for reasonable policy changes, which this is.

 

[eruby]

Being relatively new around here, I really don't understand the term "fudd". A few folks have attempted to explain it, but I still don't understand it.

Is it a gun owner that takes the attitude that they don't care about YOUR rights, and they only care about keeping what THEY have? Maybe someone could elaborate what it means, since it is thrown around plenty here on MDS.

Since the thread title contains this term, maybe it's meant as a derogatory term that gets things moving in the wrong direction from the start...

Anyway, I support the OP in his dismay over the PGTS policy, believe he came to the right place to seek support and will support him in affecting a change in their policy - if the plan he puts forth is reasonable. If he needs people to go to council meeting and sit behind him while presenting stock options/pleading his argument, I will be there. It's the people's range and we have the right to ask for reasonable policy changes, which this is.

I think it originally started with an 'Elmer Fudd', that no one needs 'assault rifles', 'hi-cap mag' handguns, etc, just their hunting rifles/shotguns.

Plenty of people still believe that.

 

[circleshooter]

Interesting conversation. As a serious clay shooter, here are my opinions and observations.

1. Unsafe asshats are everywhere and often don't think rules should apply to them. I've seen it at EVERY range I've ever gone to. That said, I'm not certain in this case that PG's staff understands their own policy. However, we also don't know what specific issues they've had with people at their facility using pistol gripped guns. As we all know, the stupidity of a few usually inspires remedies that penalize everyone. I think they instituted a rule denying the use of "pistol gripped" shotguns without really clarifying what that means. At Loch Raven shotguns must have a barrel longer than 18 inches. Pistol-grip only shotguns are prohibited, but stocked guns with pistol grips are allowed.

2. It makes perfect sense to not allow pistol-grip only shotguns at clay shooting ranges. In my opinion they suck for HD and REALLY suck for clay shooting as they can't be either properly aimed or, more importantly in clay shooting, pointed.

3. But...I see no problem with a stocked shotgun with a pistol-grip like the OP tried to use. Some people prefer them ergonomically and the stock allows a proper, and safe, gun mount for engaging targets. In fact, they are indeed used by serious shooters. Here's a photo a Nill-Griffe EVO-COMP stock. Sure looks like a pistol grip to me. In fact, it's the stock used by Olympic gold medalist Vincent Hancock.

Oh...I'm amazed that there is actually a county government, in this state, that would run a shooting facility of any sort, so I find it frightening that some folks would advocate suing, etc. because they don't like the facility's rules. Trust me, at Loch Raven we've had people incensed they they couldn't use goose loads and left without paying for their rounds. Sorry, for me those are the kind of 2A supporters we can live without.

PG County Trap & Skeet throws over 5 million targets per year and I suspect that revenues they raise pays for a lot of PG County's Department of Parks and Recreation.

 

[Bountied]

Interesting conversation. As a serious clay shooter, here are my opinions and observations.

1. Unsafe asshats are everywhere and often don't think rules should apply to them. I've seen it at EVERY range I've ever gone to. That said, I'm not certain in this case that PG's staff understands their own policy. However, we also don't know what specific issues they've had with people at their facility using pistol gripped guns. As we all know, the stupidity of a few usually inspires remedies that penalize everyone. I think they instituted a rule denying the use of "pistol gripped" shotguns without really clarifying what that means. At Loch Raven shotguns must have a barrel longer than 18 inches. Pistol-grip only shotguns are prohibited, but stocked guns with pistol grips are allowed.

2. It makes perfect sense to not allow pistol-grip only shotguns at clay shooting ranges. In my opinion they suck for HD and REALLY suck for clay shooting as they can't be either properly aimed or, more importantly in clay shooting, pointed.

3. But...I see no problem with a stocked shotgun with a pistol-grip like the OP tried to use. Some people prefer them ergonomically and the stock allows a proper, and safe, gun mount for engaging targets. In fact, they are indeed used by serious shooters. Here's a photo a Nill-Griffe EVO-COMP stock. Sure looks like a pistol grip to me. In fact, it's the stock used by Olympic gold medalist Vincent Hancock.

Oh...I'm amazed that there is actually a county government, in this state, that would run a shooting facility of any sort, so I find it frightening that some folks would advocate suing, etc. because they don't like the facility's rules. Trust me, at Loch Raven we've had people incensed they they couldn't use goose loads and left without paying for their rounds. Sorry, for me those are the kind of 2A supporters we can live without.

PG County Trap & Skeet throws over 5 million targets per year and I suspect that revenues they raise pays for a lot of PG County's Department of Parks and Recreation.

That is an awesome shot gun and has a pistol grip, but not like the one the OP has in his picture.

I was going to suggest if for ergonomic/econimc reasons that the Hogue and Magpul stocks for the 870 have a more dropped grip but are not a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, like in the AWB ban definition.

By shotgun terms this is a pistol grip.