Petition fails

[BRONZ]

No, that's wonderful. Referendum was the wrong move. Constitutional related issues should never be in the hands of the voters. Not to mention a state as blue as Maryland. *

And a liberal court is going to hep us how.....

MSP's, Just Cause was ruled un-Contsitutional.....how has that worked out for us.

Not you Merlin but I think some didnt support it because the petition starters didnt ask MDS first
for help.

 

[rwbow1969]

I'm glad they came out and said it was a bad idea, because it was..[/COLOR]

So yes, Parrott kicked the SB281 referendum in the nuts right out the gate. Then, when it tried to get going, he kicked it in the rear too. Same goes for the NRA.

Boy, do I hope this isn't going to be a "told you so" in a couple years if SB281 turns out to be a Woolard. If that happens, the bitter taste of the failed referendum drive will be a lot worse in my mouth. So much so, that I doubt the NRA would ever get another dime from me.

What were the negative implications of a majority of voters telling the legislature that SB281 is just going too far?

Instant gratification? The referendum would not take place until November 2014. Yes, this would have bought time for some people, but the ultimate reward would be 18 months down the road.

Yes, this would have bought more time for people to buy more toys. I've heard that way too many times. That's lame.

I've also heard the "I'm moving out of the state crap too."

A Court win could be extremely painful too, with plenty of negative implications. There are plenty of issues to litigate here. Shall I list them for you:

1) Licensing
2) Fingerprinting
3) Licensing fees
4) Banning of assault weapons
5) Mental Health Issues

I think the list could be even longer than that.

A referendum win would have gotten rid of ALL of that. I seriously doubt a Court is going to come down 100% against SB281. So, we are going to live with some portion of this bill. Question is going to be what portion. I really hope it ends up being we are stuck with none of it, but I highly doubt that is going to be the case.

All in all, it's done. The referendum petition failed. Time to move on.

 

[zoostation]

Not you Merlin but I think some didnt support it because the petition starters didnt ask MDS first
for help.

Whoa. Back that up a step please. I hope you're not thinking of the Maryland Shooters website when you say that. MDS supporting or not supporting a referendum was never an issue. We never took a position on this, and not that it matters but just speaking for myself personally I was pro-referendum anyway, a lot of people know that. But we, meaning MDS, never took a position on this issue one way or the other.

 

[rwbow1969]

Whoa. Back that up a step please. I hope you're not thinking of the Maryland Shooters website when you say that. MDS supporting or not supporting a referendum was never an issue. We never took a position on this, and not that it matters but just speaking for myself personally I was pro-referendum anyway, a lot of people know that. But we, meaning MDS, never took a position on this issue one way or the other.

This is truth. I know zoostation supported it but, MDS never had a position on it. MDS was always neutral. Maybe he's referring to MSI?

 

[ShallNotInfringe]

Whoa. Back that up a step please. I hope you're not thinking of the Maryland Shooters website when you say that. MDS supporting or not supporting anything gun-related has never been an issue. We never took a position on this, and not that it matters but just speaking for myself personally I was pro-referendum anyway, a lot of people know that. But we, meaning MDS, never took a position on this issue one way or the other.

Exactly. This forum is a pure grassroots community. One of the best things going for it. MDS never had an official position.

There was considerable debate and many points for/against the referendum were discussed allowing folks to make their own decision.

That being said, one of the strategic approaches that I have seen in nearly every successful undertaking is for the organizer to identify key stakeholders and reach out to them. Looking at how this all went down and listening to the radio show, it was clear that was not included. They just expected people to jump on their bandwagon.

Let's just imagine a different scenario... This is a huge gun rights community... Who was down in Annapolis for 4 stinkin months??. The organizer comes in with an introduction and solid rationale for doing it and a plan. Mighta got some pushback, but mighta won some solid support...

I reached out to them to obtain information and tried to bring it over here. Was sorely disappointed in those conversations and the discussion last night on the air was filled with so much finger pointing, I was hollering in the car... What about the 3 pointing back at you???

Frogman gave it his best and I hope he doesn't become disheartened by this. His passion and commitment was honorable. He was a real "can do", standup guy... The kind needed for the fight that is ahead.

 

[Jim12]

What were the negative implications of a majority of voters telling the legislature that SB281 is just going too far?

Instant gratification? The referendum would not take place until November 2014. Yes, this would have bought time for some people, but the ultimate reward would be 18 months down the road.

A Court win could be extremely painful too, with plenty of negative implications. There are plenty of issues to litigate here. Shall I list them for you:

1) Licensing
2) Fingerprinting
3) Licensing fees
4) Banning of assault weapons
5) Mental Health Issues

I think the list could be even longer than that.

A referendum win would have gotten rid of ALL of that. I seriously doubt a Court is going to come down 100% against SB281. So, we are going to live with some portion of this bill. Question is going to be what portion. I really hope it ends up being we are stuck with none of it, but I highly doubt that is going to be the case.

If you're so dam* sure a referendum could have won, you can achieve the same result by convincing MD voters to have the MGA repeal it.

That having been said, let's now work on all fronts and at all levels, together, like the libs do.

 

[tdt91]

Bring on the lawsuits!

It's time to start donating to the Second Ammendment Foundation guys. They will take Wollard to the Supreme Court before SB281 even thinks about a suite on a high level. A win with Wollard could have an impact on SB281 suite.

 

[DC-W]

It's time to start donating to the Second Ammendment Foundation guys. They will take Wollard to the Supreme Court before SB281 even thinks about a suite on a high level. A win with Wollard could have an impact on SB281 suite.

Oh yes. There will be donations.

 

[teratos]

Not you Merlin but I think some didnt support it because the petition starters didnt ask MDS first
for help.

If you are referring to MSI you are off base. MSI came out against a referendum. It had nothing to do with "paying homage" or any other such nonsense, it had to do with believing that the referendum was a bad idea. This opinion was shared by AGC and MSI. This discussion began in January/February, and it was deemed a bad idea almost immediately.

 

[Haides]

So let me get this straight... At best, all a referendum could have done is repeal the law only to have it be replace with a new one the following GA... Even if we didn't win, it would delay the law until November 2014.. Considering I don't turn 21 until June 2014, if anybody has something gain by supporting it, it would've been me. On the other hand, even if the court only strikes one part of the bill, that's binding precedent and ensures that they can't try this crap again. Whether that means AWBs, mag limits, licensing, whatever, it solves that problem permanently. A referendum solves that problem for a few months. Even if the Supreme Court would rule in favor of 281, then at least we know that it's time to use the 2A for what it was intended for anyway.

 

[madness3120]

Yea lets move on, its done and over with. Time to put that energy into the lawsuite and help donate to the people thats trying to perserve our and our future peoples 2A rights

 

[rh92]

Great.


I await the lawsuit but it seems like it'll have to wait until AFTER sb281 goes into effect.

 

[frogman68]

Do not take this as a bitter defeated person. Take this from a realist view.
Look at the top county signatures this was very winnable. My wife is already packing. This will not be a rash or abrupt move . The housing market is starting to rebound our current house needs some work so I will start that. Wv looks great but the liberal cancer will spread , Tx looks great too . Will look to see if there is any openings in one of offices in a Free State

I mean this in the least offensive of ways possible to those who worked on the referendum.

Putting up our rights --regardless of purpose-- to popular vote is never appropriate. This goes especially in a state with such stacked voting prowess and where the government gets to write the question for the ballot.

Now there is one target and a mammoth group to put our money and assistance behind. Things will come to a head in the courts, one way or another. Of this I am confident of (not that that means much).

Nothing is over and regardless of what happens in October, we still have 2014 to prepare for. While attacks on our 2A (and other) rights have been painful in this state, there is no reason for a white flag and no reason to be defeatist over the battles to come.

Our rights were voted on when these morons were elected. This issue is not a us against them . I still believe the antis are the minority

ref for vote would be bad... the sheeple that vote these yahoos in wouldve voted against our 2A rights then we would have little to no recourse....... so its good it failed... just saying

If the referendum failed the courts were still an option , if we lose the courts we are done. Something I said earlier , was said by Pat on the radio last night with a twist. I stated that if we lose this in the courts the other states will model their laws on ours. Pat stated that in 88 once that gun bill was lost in the courts the NRA didnt file for cert at SCOTUS for fear of the national fallout.

Neither he, the NRA, nor other organizations that will remain un-named helped the petition drive on SB281. If you think the NRA, Parrot, et al. coming out and saying referendum is a bad idea did not sway people, then you are thinking with a closed mind.

So yes, Parrott kicked the SB281 referendum in the nuts right out the gate. Then, when it tried to get going, he kicked it in the rear too. Same goes for the NRA.

Boy, do I hope this isn't going to be a "told you so" in a couple years if SB281 turns out to be a Woolard. If that happens, the bitter taste of the failed referendum drive will be a lot worse in my mouth. So much so, that I doubt the NRA would ever get another dime from me.

By the time this gets to courts I might be dead

The only part you are missing is the part about us having almost no chance of winning a referendum.

The chance is over but looking at the numbers by county this was very winnable

No, that's wonderful. Referendum was the wrong move. Constitutional related issues should never be in the hands of the voters. Not to mention a state as blue as Maryland. *

Being blue had nothing to do with this

Right you are. It seems everyone that is for referendum fails to realize the reality of that.

Like others have said let's hope the court case doesn't fail

Woulda, Shoulda, Coulda, winning the lottery would be wonderful as well. But your chances of winning the lottery are much better than winning a referendum vote on this issue in Maryland. Sure there are allot of gun owners in Maryland, but 80% are not paying attention. Out of the one's that are, all to many do not bother to vote.

Even many that are MS members. I have read many posts from people I consider to be the problem say, "I'm not going to bother to vote because of how blue their area is".

Personally I think the referendum would of helped the DINO movement

All in all, it's done. The referendum petition failed. Time to move on.

This is so true

Whoa. Back that up a step please. I hope you're not thinking of the Maryland Shooters website when you say that. MDS supporting or not supporting a referendum was never an issue. We never took a position on this, and not that it matters but just speaking for myself personally I was pro-referendum anyway, a lot of people know that. But we, meaning MDS, never took a position on this issue one way or the other.

The neutrality of MDS was great the referendum could of done a lot worse without this site

Exactly. This forum is a pure grassroots community. One of the best things going for it. MDS never had an official position.

There was considerable debate and many points for/against the referendum were discussed allowing folks to make their own decision.

That being said, one of the strategic approaches that I have seen in nearly every successful undertaking is for the organizer to identify key stakeholders and reach out to them. Looking at how this all went down and listening to the radio show, it was clear that was not included. They just expected people to jump on their bandwagon.

Let's just imagine a different scenario... This is a huge gun rights community... Who was down in Annapolis for 4 stinkin months??. The organizer comes in with an introduction and solid rationale for doing it and a plan. Mighta got some pushback, but mighta won some solid support...

I reached out to them to obtain information and tried to bring it over here. Was sorely disappointed in those conversations and the discussion last night on the air was filled with so much finger pointing, I was hollering in the car... What about the 3 pointing back at you???

Frogman gave it his best and I hope he doesn't become disheartened by this. His passion and commitment was honorable. He was a real "can do", standup guy... The kind needed for the fight that is ahead.

Thanks but you too tried (not saying you supported it) to get the leaders of the petition to reach out to this site , that to was a critical mistake of this referendum

If you're so dam* sure a referendum could have won, you can achieve the same result by convincing MD voters to have the MGA repeal it.

That having been said, let's now work on all fronts and at all levels, together, like the libs do.

What support can we do now that this is just in the courts?

It's time to start donating to the Second Ammendment Foundation guys. They will take Wollard to the Supreme Court before SB281 even thinks about a suite on a high level. A win with Wollard could have an impact on SB281 suite.

Dont think that will have any effect on SB281

Oh yes. There will be donations.

Again not being bitter but no my spare cash will no be devoted to leaving this state

If you are referring to MSI you are off base. MSI came out against a referendum. It had nothing to do with "paying homage" or any other such nonsense, it had to do with believing that the referendum was a bad idea. This opinion was shared by AGC and MSI. This discussion began in January/February, and it was deemed a bad idea almost immediately.

Which I still think was a bad decision . This was a lost opportunity for MSI

So let me get this straight... At best, all a referendum could have done is repeal the law only to have it be replace with a new one the following GA... Even if we didn't win, it would delay the law until November 2014.. Considering I don't turn 21 until June 2014, if anybody has something gain by supporting it, it would've been me. On the other hand, even if the court only strikes one part of the bill, that's binding precedent and ensures that they can't try this crap again. Whether that means AWBs, mag limits, licensing, whatever, it solves that problem permanently. A referendum solves that problem for a few months. Even if the Supreme Court would rule in favor of 281, then at least we know that it's time to use the 2A for what it was intended for anyway.

There is still a chance that the GA will come back next session for more. Even if they strike down a portion they will rewrite it this circle will go on forever

Yea lets move on, its done and over with. Time to put that energy into the lawsuite and help donate to the people thats trying to perserve our and our future peoples 2A rights

Besides money what can we do for the court case ?




I await the lawsuit but it seems like it'll have to wait until AFTER sb281 goes into effect.[/QUOTE]

 

[Merlin]

And a liberal court is going to hep us how.....

MSP's, Just Cause was ruled un-Contsitutional.....how has that worked out for us.

Not you Merlin but I think some didnt support it because the petition starters didnt ask MDS first
for help.

Lets say your right and a liberal court will not help us. (assuming it ends up in a liberal court, and/or the liberal court is as liberal as you may think it will be on that given day).

Why do we want to give them more ammo by offing them a referendum that would be doomed to fail from the start? If you let them vote, it will go down as "what the people want". And they will be able to use that in ever court case from now until dooms day. In any court it will always look like the majority want 281.

Here are some other things you need to consider. I would not be surprised to learn that 1/3rd of the gun people right on MDS do not bother to get off their butts to go and vote in any election. I would also not be surprised to learn that 80% of the gun owners in this state are not even up to date on what's going on, or may not even care if they did because they own the 1-3 guns they would ever want.

But lets say this is a very red state. Constitutional issues should not be up for a vote NEVER EVER, Blue state or Red state. The the first 10 Amendments is the main law of the land that should never be voted on. No matter if it benefits us or not.

The state is breaking the law! As soon as you start letting the blue voters vote on if this is OK or not we are heading down a very bad path by opening the flood gates. If we managed to put the Constitutional 2A issues for a vote (in Maryland of all places), what's next? Over the next ten years should the blue people of Maryland vote on whether we still should follow the 1A - 10A that make up the Bill of rights?

Allot of Blue voters have said the Constitution is an old out dated document. I'm very sure they would LOVE a chance to vote on part, or all of it. Maybe you think it's a good idea and we should vote on the entire document. Why let the Blue voters of Maryland just vote on just the one constitutional issue. Lets let them vote on it all. Crazy you say? OK, who will say what parts of the 1A-10A we should vote on? You? Me? Maybe we can leave it up to MOM?

The blue voters of Maryland can vote away the entire Constitution and we can let the other 49 states follow that old document.

Clearly that is better then taking out chances with a liberal court, right? At least that's what your pointing out.

It's my opinion the state is breaking the law with 281. When someone or some state breaks the law it/they should go to court, not up for a vote. If you let it go to a vote, your just asking the blue people of Maryland to say if it's OK, or not, that the state is breaking Constitutional law. Not that the state is not breaking the law. But your just asking the the blue voters if they are OK with it.

Then when you take the state to court down the road after our crash and burn referendum loss, The state can say, "look judge" this is what the people of Maryland want. They voted on it and they feel safe because of 281. If your right and we have no hope against a liberal court, how much hope do you think we will have if they have this ammo on their side?

 

[Merlin]

Do not take this as a bitter defeated person. Take this from a realist view.
Look at the top county signatures this was very winnable. My wife is already packing. This will not be a rash or abrupt move . The housing market is starting to rebound our current house needs some work so I will start that. Wv looks great but the liberal cancer will spread , Tx looks great too . Will look to see if there is any openings in one of offices in a Free State







Our rights were voted on when these morons were elected. This issue is not a us against them . I still believe the antis are the minority



If the referendum failed the courts were still an option , if we lose the courts we are done. Something I said earlier , was said by Pat on the radio last night with a twist. I stated that if we lose this in the courts the other states will model their laws on ours. Pat stated that in 88 once that gun bill was lost in the courts the NRA didnt file for cert at SCOTUS for fear of the national fallout.



By the time this gets to courts I might be dead



The chance is over but looking at the numbers by county this was very winnable



Being blue had nothing to do with this



Like others have said let's hope the court case doesn't fail



Personally I think the referendum would of helped the DINO movement



This is so true



The neutrality of MDS was great the referendum could of done a lot worse without this site



Thanks but you too tried (not saying you supported it) to get the leaders of the petition to reach out to this site , that to was a critical mistake of this referendum



What support can we do now that this is just in the courts?



Dont think that will have any effect on SB281



Again not being bitter but no my spare cash will no be devoted to leaving this state



Which I still think was a bad decision . This was a lost opportunity for MSI



There is still a chance that the GA will come back next session for more. Even if they strike down a portion they will rewrite it this circle will go on forever



Besides money what can we do for the court case ?




I await the lawsuit but it seems like it'll have to wait until AFTER sb281 goes into effect.

You sir are the master of Multi-Q

 

[frogman68]

You sir are the master of Multi-Q

don't want to be a post whore

 

[KingGeorge]

Better get organized! All the bitching is exactly what there looking for. Nothing like measuring up your opponent and seeing them go at each others throats.

Goodluck

 

[EL1227]

The BaltimoreSun gloats

What was all the fuss about?
Our view: Death penalty repeal and gun control measures fail to stir sufficient opposition from Maryland voters to put either on the ballot next year.

The 'fuss' as they put it, is that referendums in the People's Republic of Maryland are a dead end street. Considering that AG Gansler would proxie Owe'Malley's lies to twist any referendum question into indistinguishable gibberish, why bother ... And, in the case of the 'Gun Safety Act of 2013', I don't think that there is a freedom-loving Marylander who would ever sign a referendum that puts a constitutional right up for a popular vote.

See you all in court ...​

HIT IT !!!

 

[fabsroman]

What was all the fuss about?
Our view: Death penalty repeal and gun control measures fail to stir sufficient opposition from Maryland voters to put either on the ballot next year.

The 'fuss' as they put it, is that referendums in the People's Republic of Maryland are a dead end street. Considering that AG Gansler would proxie Owe'Malley's lies to twist any referendum question into indistinguishable gibberish, why bother ... And, in the case of the 'Gun Safety Act of 2013', I don't think that there is a freedom-loving Marylander who would ever sign a referendum that puts a constitutional right up for a popular vote.

See you all in court ...​

HIT IT !!!

Really. I guess I just do not happen to be a freedom-loving Marylander. See, it is these types of ignorant comments that make me want to take my marbles home. How about if I were to say "I don't think any freedom loving Marylander would be so retarded to think that the entirety of SB281 would be struck down by the Court, if any of it were to be struck down at all."

Sad thing is that if the NRA and MSI did NOT take a negative stance toward the referendum, I am willing to bet that there would have been a lot more support and those 700 signatures would have been cake. Even with both organizations saying a referendum is a bad idea, the required number of signatures for the first cutoff were almost obtained.

Anybody have any idea how much money was actually put toward obtaining all those signatures?

 

[BRONZ]

Lets say your right and a liberal court will not help us. (assuming it ends up in a liberal court, and/or the liberal court is as liberal as you may think it will be on that given day).

Why do we want to give them more ammo by offing them a referendum that would be doomed to fail from the start? If you let them vote, it will go down as "what the people want". And they will be able to use that in ever court case from now until dooms day. In any court it will always look like the majority want 281.

Here are some other things you need to consider. I would not be surprised to learn that 1/3rd of the gun people right on MDS do not bother to get off their butts to go and vote in any election. I would also not be surprised to learn that 80% of the gun owners in this state are not even up to date on what's going on, or may not even care if they did because they own the 1-3 guns they would ever want.

But lets say this is a very red state. Constitutional issues should not be up for a vote NEVER EVER, Blue state or Red state. The the first 10 Amendments is the main law of the land that should never be voted on. No matter if it benefits us or not.

The state is breaking the law! As soon as you start letting the blue voters vote on if this is OK or not we are heading down a very bad path by opening the flood gates. If we managed to put the Constitutional 2A issues for a vote (in Maryland of all places), what's next? Over the next ten years should the blue people of Maryland vote on whether we still should follow the 1A - 10A that make up the Bill of rights?

Allot of Blue voters have said the Constitution is an old out dated document. I'm very sure they would LOVE a chance to vote on part, or all of it. Maybe you think it's a good idea and we should vote on the entire document. Why let the Blue voters of Maryland just vote on just the one constitutional issue. Lets let them vote on it all. Crazy you say? OK, who will say what parts of the 1A-10A we should vote on? You? Me? Maybe we can leave it up to MOM?

The blue voters of Maryland can vote away the entire Constitution and we can let the other 49 states follow that old document.

Clearly that is better then taking out chances with a liberal court, right? At least that's what your pointing out.

It's my opinion the state is breaking the law with 281. When someone or some state breaks the law it/they should go to court, not up for a vote. If you let it go to a vote, your just asking the blue people of Maryland to say if it's OK, or not, that the state is breaking Constitutional law. Not that the state is not breaking the law. But your just asking the the blue voters if they are OK with it.

Then when you take the state to court down the road after our crash and burn referendum loss, The state can say, "look judge" this is what the people of Maryland want. They voted on it and they feel safe because of 281. If your right and we have no hope against a liberal court, how much hope do you think we will have if they have this ammo on their side?

Merlin I agree with alot of what you wrote.

But using your logic we have now shown the courts that a referendum to stop 281 failed hence that could indeed be used against upcoming court decisions.

I have been a voting NRA life member a long time. With that I have seen the NRA slow down, water down and even get bills removed crom legislation but I havent seen to many enacted laws reversed that actually benefits gun owners.

There have been many 2A restrictions ruled un-Contsitutional around the country and now in our state. But as in our case are we CCW.