Nigerian megachurch proposed in Crofton

[tourrider]

In my experience, local code enforcement will set the parking lot size for you according to your proposed occupant count. We found that out the hard way in Carroll County.

Sent from Foxtrot-Mike 19

 

[good guy 176]

It appears they are asking for 299 parking spaces so they don't trigger a more comprehensive review for project that happens with 300+ spaces.

A Nigerian scam in our own backyard. Enough!

Worked with Sam at Re/Max, Burtonsville, MD in late 90s and Sam and GF ended up scamming many of our customers out of over $200,000 in a credit card scam he and GF were running. Sam is out on the street nowdays and likely still into one of the many scams those Nigerian turds run.

Lew--Ranger63

 

[Jim12]

It appears they are asking for 299 parking spaces so they don't trigger a more comprehensive review for project that happens with 300+ spaces.

A Nigerian scam in our own backyard. Enough!

Oh, yeah. How many local developers do the same thing? Ever notice how every few months the spaces at Annapolis Towne Center across from Whole Foods keep shrinking in size and growing in number after the initial layout/striping? In a few years they'll be just big enough for motorcycles and bicycles, but there will be double the number!

 

[BeoBill]

[ZappBrannigan]
I've witnessed the construction game played via incrementalism, and that's what my gut says this is.
[/ZappBrannigan]

I agree. I think you've nailed it. Run away screaming!

 

[aray]

In my experience, local code enforcement will set the parking lot size for you according to your proposed occupant count. We found that out the hard way in Carroll County.

Sent from Foxtrot-Mike 19

A number of folks raised valid questions re: cheating and incrementalism but if the county is smart they'll use the 299 parking lot size to set the occupant count. Dunno what the expected ratio of cars to people is (I'm sure there is some average standard) but let's say it's 2.5, then 299*2.5 = 748, so the county permitting and fire marshal should set the max occupancy of the building to 748. Problem solved for parking on the grass, buses, etc. There are ways to deal with that, if the county wants to do it right.

 

[mvee]

Apparently they are planning on bringing in busses. I wonder if it is 299 bus parking spots.

 

[aray]

This is within the power of the county to control, right up front. Take them at their word, set the fire occupancy rate for cars, then bind them legally to that standard and no more.

 

[mvee]

http://www.capitalgazette.com/news/ph-ac-cn-church-meeting-0819-20150818-story.html#

 

[Rack&Roll]

This is within the power of the county to control, right up front. Take them at their word, set the fire occupancy rate for cars, then bind them legally to that standard and no more.

Take them at their word? You're kidding right?

Their culture deems us "blue-eyed Devils", and that scamming us is a righteous act on behalf of their society.

 

[aray]

I think you misunderstood me, or perhaps I was not articulate enough. When I said "take them at their word" my meaning was that they claim 299 cars would be sufficient. OK, so set the size of the building accordingly based upon that number. That's what I meant. Don't issue a construction permit for any structure that would host more than that number of cars and associated people. Don't allow a fire occupancy rating for any more than the calculated number of people based on 299 cars.

It's not a matter of trust which they could then violate, say if they tried to park 299 buses instead of cars, or tried to park 700 cars on the grass. I'm saying use their own numbers, and then physically and legally bind them to that amount.

For me it boils down to private property rights. If the land is zoned for that kind of use, and if the infrastructure can support that amount of load, then to deny them I believe is unjust. Furthermore I may not believe the same doctrine as they do (quite frankly I have no idea what this church believes) but this country was founded in part by people fleeing religious persecution from older nations so to single them out on that score would also be wrong.

Look I live in this area too and I have no incentive to see a mess if the worst case scenario some have painted come to pass. I just believe there are already legal tools in place that, if utilized properly, could allow them to build at their stated size, and that can be structurally and legally enforceable against future attempts to expand. No scam is then possible.

 

[Rack&Roll]

OK, how about if the United Gypsy Clans of America wanted to take a property in Crofton and declare they were setting up a Meditation Garden for 100 people--except 500 people showed up every weekend for rowdy picnics?

This Nigerian "church" is a band of people focused on acquiring money and wealth by warping gospel messages from the Bible. Their church leader just purchased a Gulfstream V personal jet to show his piety.

It is a Ponzi Scheme tricked-out with religious gobblydigook. Once they mark-out 299 parking spaces, they will cry racism when residents complain about the 1000 people showing up in their completed 64,000 sq. foot complex after parking on nearby residential streets. Then limited police and fire resources will have to be set aside to manage this once-a-week religious "festivus" to force compliance with approved capacity. Following that will be a blizzard of discrimination lawsuits stripping local coffers of money that could be better used for education of infrastructure.

It's OK to say no. Incentivize groups like this to develop their cult camps out where they won't bother anybody.

 

[rico903]

Or 299 vans of 10 person capacity, almost 3,000 people.

 

[mvee]

This is from a Facebook post from someone who was at the meeting yesterday:

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1444949879169230&id=1432650727065812

There were many good points made by the community at last night's meeting about the Winners Chapel International proposed development. Clearly the first thing to roll off everyone's tongue was: Traffic. So let's start there.
First off, I do not believe that the Winners Chapel and it's representatives are accurately depicting the traffic that will be generated by this development. The traffic study, and all of their calculations appear to be based upon 299 cars. Those 299 cars will fill the 299 paved parking spaces that they plan to build. That number has been derived from the 900 (really 897) fixed seats in their sanctuary, as code requires 1 parking space for every 3 fixed seats. (897/3 = 299). Why 299 parking spaces? Because 300 requires special approval, which opens the door to community input.
If a full sanctuary means a full parking lot, then what about the rest of the building, and by "rest", I mean the majority of the building? There are classrooms, a cafe, offices, a commercial kitchen, etc? Do they expect us to believe that all these other rooms will stand empty when there is a service going on? And speaking of standing, what about all that empty floor space in the sanctuary? 897 seats sounds like a lot, but that is a really big room, there will be a lot of open floor space. What's to say that there will not be people standing there? Do they expect us to believe that they will turn away parishioners when the last fixed seat is filled? And speaking of turning people away, who will do that? The staff, of course. It takes a lot of staff to properly manage 900 people, and the 300 cars they arrived in. Where is the staff going to park?
Well, folks, I think Mr. Parrot's lack of a definitive response to the last question of the evening speaks volumes about their approach to parking and the traffic that fills those spots. When asked by a neighboring property owner, if the church would make a commitment to the community that it would not spread gravel on the unused part of their property and call it "Temporary Parking", he would not make that commitment. There is an approximately 5 acre portion of their property located to the south of Cox Rd. They have shared very little information about their plans for that area, and have even left it off of some of their drawings. As allowed under existing code, they can spread gravel, 4999sqft at a time without requiring a permit (Don't worry, we're not tipping them off to anything they don't already know.) So, if they only put gravel over just half of that 5 +/- acre space, that works out to over 200 "Temporary" parking spaces.
So, let's start looking at the impact on our community based upon what CAN happen, not just what they tell us they "plan" on happening: 500+ cars, 1500+ people coming, and 500+ cars and 1500+ people going, at the same time, as they turnover from one service to another. You think 300 cars is scary, try 1000.
The pastor told us that the church will grow, if there is one thing that we should believe when they tell us, it is this.

 

[Minuteman]

What is the probability of this 'church' actually being built?

I've live in the Middle East off and on for several years, I do not want to relive that terrible experience in any way. The largest mosque in the Western Hemisphere is being built in Maryland, and now this might happen too?

http://m.therightscoop.com/obama-and-erdogan-to-open-new-mosque-together-in-maryland/

 

[Rack&Roll]

The reason people from all over the planet want to come here is that our "ordered liberty" is the envy of the world. This includes the respect and protection of private property rights.

The Facebook post listing the many ways that the Nigerian MegaChurch plan conflicts with the "quiet enjoyment" of established residents in Crofton is an example of the American System in action-- nothing personal, just the data.

If immigrating Nigerians and Islamics don't like it, tough shiite. They can set up in Haiti or Cuba.

 

[aray]

First off, I do not believe that the Winners Chapel and it's representatives are accurately depicting the traffic that will be generated by this development. The traffic study, and all of their calculations appear to be based upon 299 cars. Those 299 cars will fill the 299 paved parking spaces that they plan to build. That number has been derived from the 900 (really 897) fixed seats in their sanctuary, as code requires 1 parking space for every 3 fixed seats. (897/3 = 299). Why 299 parking spaces? Because 300 requires special approval, which opens the door to community input.
If a full sanctuary means a full parking lot, then what about the rest of the building, and by "rest", I mean the majority of the building? There are classrooms, a cafe, offices, a commercial kitchen, etc? Do they expect us to believe that all these other rooms will stand empty when there is a service going on? And speaking of standing, what about all that empty floor space in the sanctuary? 897 seats sounds like a lot, but that is a really big room, there will be a lot of open floor space. What's to say that there will not be people standing there? Do they expect us to believe that they will turn away parishioners when the last fixed seat is filled? And speaking of turning people away, who will do that?

The answer to that and the related questions should be: the Anne Arundel County Fire Marshal. It is his legal right and responsibility to do so, and he has the laws to enforce same. If the structure is rated for an 897 person occupancy and that occupancy is exceeded, then the Fire Marshal can: issue fines against the church, close a service to enforce safety, or as a very last resort make arrests. They can claim racism all they want but no pun intended the code and law is black and white. Likewise they can bring in buses, vans, carpools, or camel caravans - it all matters not if they try to exceed the capacity of the building. The County Fire Marshal can and should shut them down.

I think Mr. Parrot's lack of a definitive response to the last question of the evening speaks volumes about their approach to parking and the traffic that fills those spots. When asked by a neighboring property owner, if the church would make a commitment to the community that it would not spread gravel on the unused part of their property and call it "Temporary Parking", he would not make that commitment. There is an approximately 5 acre portion of their property located to the south of Cox Rd. They have shared very little information about their plans for that area, and have even left it off of some of their drawings. As allowed under existing code, they can spread gravel, 4999sqft at a time without requiring a permit (Don't worry, we're not tipping them off to anything they don't already know.) So, if they only put gravel over just half of that 5 +/- acre space, that works out to over 200 "Temporary" parking spaces.

I think this is pretty compelling testimony that they do intend to cheat, which troubles me as it should everyone. This is the headline news from the last meeting. If we have a strong County Fire Marshal with a strong County Executive to back him up (or fire him if he doesn't perform) then we're good to go. Private property rights and community impact are in balance. If however the FM and the CE don't express a firm commitment to enforce the law in the face of cheating and pressure from the church, then yes I concede the point as the legal safeguards are gone. Those two are the ones I'd like to hear from if there is another community meeting. Indeed no other speakers besides them really matter at this point.

 

[traveller]

If this was a branch of Jerry Falwells empire, people would fall over each other praising the benefits this will bring to the community.

A lot of churches cheat on the parking lot requirements and occupancy limits. If there was an effort to move against this church based on those code sections, there are about 100 other churches that need to be looked at first.

 

[reddobie0]

Guess I will be joining the Nigerian Church!

If it gets built it is over and it will grow, grow, grow. Traffic on 450 sucks in that area already.

 

[traveller]

If it gets built it is over and it will grow, grow, grow. Traffic on 450 sucks in that area already.

That's no different from all the other baptist churches that have to hire off duty police to block roads when they let out their parishoners from their huge parking lots.

 

[reddobie0]

That's no different from all the other baptist churches that have to hire off duty police to block roads when they let out their parishoners from their huge parking lots.

Yep, but we don't need a church there and I will have a hard time getting to Rita's. Why not make it church row over on 424 by the other new church by the dog park. Easy access to 50 and no intersections to deal with except to get on and off 50.