New to C&R and need advice…

[BlueHeeler]

I live in DC, unfortunately the law dominates a lot of my firearms ownership. I just applied for my C&R and realized with that license I am free to buy whatever pistol I want on the C&R list without paying the $125 FFL handgun transfer fee.

The tops on my list are CZ-52, CZ 82 or TT-33. TBH I know less than nothing about these. How do they compare? What would you buy with your money? Am I missing another gem of the C&R list for the everyday modern shooter? I am not that into revolvers.

My dream handgun is a 1911 and it seems some the fall into C&R, but I do not understand the law or what is a Sistema? I grew up shooting a 1945 GI issue Springfield 1911 and basically want a C&R version, is that possible?

Thanks for the help. I generally have a $1,000 limit on a single gun, but might break it for the right 1911. Please tell me how to spend my money wisely.

Ironically I foresee I am going to end up with a relic commie gun room filled with Mosin Nagants, and Eastern bloc handguns, because that is all the DC gun commies will allow me. Eitherway I am happy new gun owner.

 

[Markp]

The tops on my list are CZ-52, CZ 82 or TT-33. TBH I know less than nothing about these. How do they compare? What would you buy with your money? Am I missing another gem of the C&R list for the everyday modern shooter? I am not that into revolvers.

All the eastern block stuff is pretty damn cool to tell the truth and congrats on being a C&R.

So here is my take on the pistols. Powerwise, nothing else on the C&R list can touch the power of the 7.62x25 Tokarev guns, they are .357 magnum class firearms... they have that much power. Average surplus ammo runs 1450 fps with 85 grain bullets, ~400 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle, add to that the fact that surplus 7.62x25 is as cheap as $86 per 1260 rounds and it's a clear winner. This is about double what the 9x18 round generates. The 9x18 makes about the same power as a .380 pistol. It's a good low end basic defensive round.

So it depends what you want. If you love the 1911, you'll love the TT-33, it is very 1911 like and is the best defensive pistol of the bunch, but does suffer from a low round count (8 rounds) however the increased power makes up for it in my mind. It is a fairly thin single stack pistol and is a good shooter, but the sights are a little lame. Polish, Romanian, and Yugo are somewhat similar. My polish was nicer than my romy, I don't have a yugo, as the yugo is not C&R.

My CZ-52 is a better shooter than my TT-33 but not as rugged, I have also tweaked my CZ-52 quite a bit. It has a reworked trigger and I replaced the firing pin with a more reliable one. The CZ-52 ergonomically fits me better, but is also a brick and has a horrible magazine release. You'll also pay more for the CZ-52 since the supply has dried up recently. Still I love the CZ-52, it's a sexy bitch of a gun and the sights are marginally better.

Finally we have the CZ-82. It's primary failing is that it is underpowered, BUT, this is a GREAT gun. Polygonal barrels (last forever), good magazine capacity (12 rounds), and great ergonomics make this a great self defense gun. I absolutely love this gun and the $180 price tag makes it irresistible. GET ONE OF THESE. Very easy to shoot, not too expensive to shoot, good ammo availability. I like it, ALOT. Sure, it's not as cheap or as powerful as the Tokarev based guns, but it's a competent self defense weapon... Shot placement is king, but this gun makes good shot placement easy.

Mark

PS - If you are a rifle person, both the SKS and the FN-49 are good values right now. Also don't miss out on the 8mm Mausers or .303 Enfields. Although more expensive a C&R M1 Garand or 1903 should be on your must have list.

 

[Chaunsey]

its not just the C&R list, anything over 50 years old is C&R eligible.


are you sure its even legal to get a C&R gun shipped to you in DC? especially handguns.

i havent really been keeping up with the changes since heller, but i know that certainly no one used to be able to get C&R into DC.

good luck finding a dealer that will ship to a C&R in DC too.

 

[BlueHeeler]

All the eastern block stuff is pretty damn cool to tell the truth and congrats on being a C&R.

So here is my take on the pistols. Powerwise, nothing else on the C&R list can touch the power of the 7.62x25 Tokarev guns, they are .357 magnum class firearms... they have that much power. Average surplus ammo runs 1450 fps with 85 grain bullets, ~400 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle, add to that the fact that surplus 7.62x25 is as cheap as $86 per 1260 rounds and it's a clear winner. This is about double what the 9x18 round generates. The 9x18 makes about the same power as a .380 pistol. It's a good low end basic defensive round.

So it depends what you want. If you love the 1911, you'll love the TT-33, it is very 1911 like and is the best defensive pistol of the bunch, but does suffer from a low round count (8 rounds) however the increased power makes up for it in my mind. It is a fairly thin single stack pistol and is a good shooter, but the sights are a little lame. Polish, Romanian, and Yugo are somewhat similar. My polish was nicer than my romy, I don't have a yugo, as the yugo is not C&R.

My CZ-52 is a better shooter than my TT-33 but not as rugged, I have also tweaked my CZ-52 quite a bit. It has a reworked trigger and I replaced the firing pin with a more reliable one. The CZ-52 ergonomically fits me better, but is also a brick and has a horrible magazine release. You'll also pay more for the CZ-52 since the supply has dried up recently. Still I love the CZ-52, it's a sexy bitch of a gun and the sights are marginally better.

Finally we have the CZ-82. It's primary failing is that it is underpowered, BUT, this is a GREAT gun. Polygonal barrels (last forever), good magazine capacity (12 rounds), and great ergonomics make this a great self defense gun. I absolutely love this gun and the $180 price tag makes it irresistible. GET ONE OF THESE. Very easy to shoot, not too expensive to shoot, good ammo availability. I like it, ALOT. Sure, it's not as cheap or as powerful as the Tokarev based guns, but it's a competent self defense weapon... Shot placement is king, but this gun makes good shot placement easy.

Mark

PS - If you are a rifle person, both the SKS and the FN-49 are good values right now. Also don't miss out on the 8mm Mausers or .303 Enfields. Although more expensive a C&R M1 Garand or 1903 should be on your must have list.

Awesome reply, MDshooters never fails to amaze me.

I would like to get an SKS, but that is an assault rifle in DC. Which is odd as other than poking people in the butt with a bayonet I do not see how that is more dangerous than my legal 12 gauge. Gun laws are not made for the educated.[/soapbox]

Basically from what I am hearing from you is I can satisfy my handgun needs/wants with funny looking C&R commie guns. I am ok with that. Actually I am pleased beyond belief.

TBH I am probably going to end up buying them all for their individual character. It is not like guns lose value like a 401K.

 

[Chaunsey]

i love my commie guns.

they shoot great, cheap to buy, cheap to feed and look cool.


get yourself a CZ-82 while they're still cheap, awesome little gun, you can get nagant revolvers dirt cheap, the sights suck, they're slow to reload and the ammo isnt the cheapest but where else can you get an actual WWII issue sidearm for about $100?

tt-33's are great of course, and there is a good reason why they are similar to the 1911, its because they were designed off of the colt 1903 which is a precursor to the 1911.

 

[BlueHeeler]

its not just the C&R list, anything over 50 years old is C&R eligible.


are you sure its even legal to get a C&R gun shipped to you in DC? especially handguns.

i havent really been keeping up with the changes since heller, but i know that certainly no one used to be able to get C&R into DC.

good luck finding a dealer that will ship to a C&R in DC too.

Good points, funny you mention Heller. Guess who was the next person after Heller to register a gun? Me!

I have yet to find a C&R dealer that will ship to DC, nor do I want guns going to my house. The ghetto people steal my mail. OTOH my Dad works for an FFL and is a C&R in MD which is where I would send any gun.

About C&R in DC. The law is Federal so I do not see how local juridicton is relevant other than ATF requiring notification (not approval) to the Chief of Police. I have notified the Chief of police, she has been to my house, petted my dog, and coincidently had a Blue Heeler of her own as a kiddo IIRC, very friendly Lady. I am not too worried she will raise objection as I do not have a criminal record.

 

[Markp]

Awesome reply, MDshooters never fails to amaze me.

I would like to get an SKS, but that is an assault rifle in DC. Which is odd as other than poking people in the butt with a bayonet I do not see how that is more dangerous than my legal 12 gauge. Gun laws are not made for the educated.[/soapbox]

Basically from what I am hearing from you is I can satisfy my handgun needs/wants with funny looking C&R commie guns. I am ok with that. Actually I am pleased beyond belief.

TBH I am probably going to end up buying them all for their individual character. It is not like guns lose value like a 401K.

If you like the SKS, then GET the FN-49, I have 2 on the way. I am going to keep the nicer of the 2, so if you are perhaps interested in a fine 8mm rifle let me know. The FN-49 is NOT LISTED and is like an SKS on steriods with high quality spare no expense Belgium manufacturing.

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/fn49/index.asp

"Comparing the FN-49 to the SKS (and I really like the SKS) is like comparing a Ford Focus with a Mercedes Benz. Both vehicles have four wheels, an engine, brakes, etc. The FN-49 is like someone took the SKS and said - "Let's make a luxury version of the SKS, cut no manufacturing corners, and not worry about cost and materials". "

http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl09-e.htm
http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIID2b616.html

By the way the SKS is only banned with a detachable magazine or if it meets the following criteria. http://mpdc.dc.gov/mpdc/frames.asp?doc=/mpdc/lib/mpdc/info/pdf/firearms_eligible_registration.pdf

(IV) A semiautomatic, rifle that has the
capacity to accept a detachable magazine
and any one of the following:

(aa) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously
beneath the action of the
weapon;
(bb) A thumbhole stock;
(cc) A folding or telescoping stock;
(dd) A grenade launcher or flare launcher;
(ee) A flash suppressor; or
(ff) A forward pistol grip;


Since the magazine on the C&R SKS is NOT detachable, you are clear for takeoff, but please verify the law with MPD and DO NOT RELY ON MY ADVICE. You cannot get the Yugoslavian SKS since it has a grenade launcher. However a nice Albanian or Russian one would do nicely in the collection.


Mark

 

[BlueHeeler]

If you like the SKS, then GET the FN-49, I have 2 on the way. I am going to keep the nicer of the 2, so if you are perhaps interested in a fine 8mm rifle let me know. The FN-49 is NOT LISTED and is like an SKS on steriods with high quality spare no expense Belgium manufacturing.

By the way the SKS is only banned with a detachable magazine or if it meets the following criteria. http://mpdc.dc.gov/mpdc/frames.asp?doc=/mpdc/lib/mpdc/info/pdf/firearms_eligible_registration.pdf

(IV) A semiautomatic, rifle that has the
capacity to accept a detachable magazine
and any one of the following:

(aa) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously
beneath the action of the
weapon;
(bb) A thumbhole stock;
(cc) A folding or telescoping stock;
(dd) A grenade launcher or flare launcher;
(ee) A flash suppressor; or
(ff) A forward pistol grip;


Since the magazine on the C&R SKS is NOT detachable, you are clear for takeoff, but please verify the law with MPD and DO NOT RELY ON MY ADVICE. You cannot get the Yugoslavian SKS since it has a grenade launcher. However a nice Albanian or Russian one would do nicely in the collection.


Mark

Thanks for the input Mark. I was wrong, I thought SKS was banned because DC somewhat follows CA law. Apparently if it is top or bottom fed makes it an entirely different gun. I still say the worst criminal activity with an SKS is poking people in the butt with the bayonet. Good fun.

 

[Chaunsey]

Good points, funny you mention Heller. Guess who was the next person after Heller to register a gun? Me!

I have yet to find a C&R dealer that will ship to DC, nor do I want guns going to my house. The ghetto people steal my mail. OTOH my Dad works for an FFL and is a C&R in MD which is where I would send any gun.

About C&R in DC. The law is Federal so I do not see how local juridicton is relevant other than ATF requiring notification (not approval) to the Chief of Police. I have notified the Chief of police, she has been to my house, petted my dog, and coincidently had a Blue Heeler of her own as a kiddo IIRC, very friendly Lady. I am not too worried she will raise objection as I do not have a criminal record.

see, i dont think that would work.

when you order a C&R firearm you have to provide the dealer with a copy of your license, they will only ship the gun to the address on the license. it "may" be legal to get a C&R license under your name but using your fathers address in MD, im not sure, i know the ATF says that you can get multiple C&R licenses, if for example you have two residences. however i dont know if that would work since you are a DC resident not an MD resident. i do know you can have 2 people using the same address for their C&R licenses though, my brother and I have both had C&R at the same address. also neighbors stealing your mail wouldnt be much of an issue because guns have to be shipped with an adult signature required. so someone has to be home to receive it, granted it has happened that they leave one without a signature though.

local jurisdiction is not relevent for the license, you can get a C&R license, i have no doubt about that, but local laws DO apply so your purchases would still have to follow DC laws, so you would still have to register your guns etc i guess.

im not trying to discourage you at all, i would be thrilled to know that you are able to receive firearms like the rest of us in our nations capitol, just make sure you know the law through and through before you do anything.

you will really enjoy your license if it works out, the first time i ordered a firearm over the phone like it was a pizza and had it arrive on my door step i was giddy as a school girl, my first thought was "god damn i love america" lol.


by the way, you can still get a yugo SKS, there is the yugo M59 SKS which has no grenade launcher, i have both the 59 and 59/66 and love em both they are really cool and well made firearms. the 59 is not so common on the market anymore but you still may find one and probably for less than a russian or something.

 

[BlueHeeler]

see, i dont think that would work.

when you order a C&R firearm you have to provide the dealer with a copy of your license, they will only ship the gun to the address on the license. it "may" be legal to get a C&R license under your name but using your fathers address in MD, im not sure, i know the ATF says that you can get multiple C&R licenses, if for example you have two residences. however i dont know if that would work since you are a DC resident not an MD resident. i do know you can have 2 people using the same address for their C&R licenses though, my brother and I have both had C&R at the same address. also neighbors stealing your mail wouldnt be much of an issue because guns have to be shipped with an adult signature required. so someone has to be home to receive it, granted it has happened that they leave one without a signature though.

local jurisdiction is not relevent for the license, you can get a C&R license, i have no doubt about that, but local laws DO apply so your purchases would still have to follow DC laws, so you would still have to register your guns etc i guess.

im not trying to discourage you at all, i would be thrilled to know that you are able to receive firearms like the rest of us in our nations capitol, just make sure you know the law through and through before you do anything.

you will really enjoy your license if it works out, the first time i ordered a firearm over the phone like it was a pizza and had it arrive on my door step i was giddy as a school girl, my first thought was "god damn i love america" lol.


by the way, you can still get a yugo SKS, there is the yugo M59 SKS which has no grenade launcher, i have both the 59 and 59/66 and love em both they are really cool and well made firearms. the 59 is not so common on the market anymore but you still may find one and probably for less than a russian or something.

Thanks for the input, you are 100% correct as I just learned. A C&R must go to the place listed on the license. I have a work around. I live across the street from the post office. My Dad with a C&R ships to his PO. So if I get a PO box I am back in business.

I know I will have to register the gun to comply to DC law, that is easy enough. The trap I am trying to avoid is DC handguns also have to go through a DC FFL. There is only one traditional FFL in DC and he charges $125 for each transfer. Silly money on a $200 relic. If I get the C&R I also would be an FFL for some guns. I believe from what MPD has said I could circumvent the other FFL transfer and just pay the $13 registration fee.

I have already been finger printed, background checked, knowledge tested, mentally stable certified, and range trained to DCs standards. Good grief!?!? I am on the $13 per gun plan now, I would rather not pay $125 to pad some guy's pocket. If that means I can only have a metric ton of C&R surplus commie guns that are fun to shoot and cheap to feed, so be it.


Edit: TBH I always thought when I get the money I would love to have a stable of handguns that are Colt, Sig, Glock, and Beretta. The norm. Well I have the money to build the collection and it might be all ex-commie guns. I am not complaining. They all look strangely interesting... I mean exotic.

 

[Markp]

Thanks for the input, you are 100% correct as I just learned. A C&R must go to the place listed on the license. I have a work around. I live across the street from the post office. So if I get a PO box I am back in business.

I know I will have to register the gun to comply to DC law, that is easy enough. The trap I am trying to avoid is DC handguns also have to go through a DC FFL. There is only one traditional FFL in DC and he charges $125 for each transfer. Silly money on a $200 relic. If I get the C&R I also would be an FFL for some guns. I believe from what MPD has said I could circumvent the other FFL transfer and just pay the $13 registration fee.

I have already been finger printed, background checked, knowledge tested, mentally stable certified, and range trained to DCs standards. I am on the $13 per gun plan now, I would rather not pay $125 to pad some guy's pocket. If that means I can only have a metric ton of C&R surplus commie guns that are fun to shoot and cheap to feed, so be it.

Yes but you can travel anywhere with your C&R and pick up guns where ever you decide to go... So if I had a C&R gun in MD and we met in VA (where FTF transfers are legal) we could transfer a C&R gun from me to you or any other FFL, unless I am missing something. That should include C&R handguns.

Mark

 

[BlueHeeler]

Yes but you can travel anywhere with your C&R and pick up guns where ever you decide to go... So if I had a C&R gun in MD and we met in VA (where FTF transfers are legal) we could transfer a C&R gun from me to you or any other FFL, unless I am missing something. That should include C&R handguns.

Mark

Again I am new to this, so the gun does not have to be sent to the address? Are FTF legal in MD?

Theoretically/likely I could go to keepshooting.com and walk away with a gun ready to register?

 

[Markp]

Again I am new to this, so the gun does not have to be sent to the address? Are FTF legal in MD?

Theoretically/likely I could go to keepshooting.com and walk away with a gun ready to register?

FTF is NOT legal in MD for a pistol, it has to go through an FFL DEALER in MD, however 2 C&R holders could travel to Virginia and swap C&R guns all day long. Both are federal licensees and neither has to be at their premise to purchase, but they must have a valid C&R and proof of ID. AFAIK.

Q: What may a licensed dealer do at an out-of-State gun show?


A licensed dealer may sell and deliver curio or relic firearms to another licensee at an out-of-State gun show. With respect to other firearms transactions, a licensed dealer may only display and take orders for firearms at an out-of-State gun show. In filling any orders for firearms, the dealer must return the firearms to his or her licensed premises and deliver them from that location. Any firearm ordered by a non-licensee must be delivered or shipped from the licensee’s premises to a licensee in the purchaser’s State of residence, and the purchaser must obtain the firearm from the licensee located in the purchaser’s State. Except for sales of curio or relic firearms to other licensees, sales of firearms and simultaneous deliveries at the gun show, whether to other licensees or to non-licensees, violate the law because the dealer would be unlawfully engaging in business at an unlicensed location.

See Curios and Relics are treated just a little differently... You can dispose of or receive curios and relics anywhere.

18 USC 923 (j) ... Nothing in this subsection shall be construed to diminish in any manner any right to display, sell, or otherwise dispose of firearms or ammunition, which is in effect before the date of the enactment of the Firearms Owners’ Protection Act, including the right of a licensee to conduct “curios or relics” firearms transfers and business away from their business premises with another licensee without regard as to whether the location of where the business is conducted is located in the State specified on the license of either licensee.

So that's the bit of law that makes it clear.

Mark

 

[Chaunsey]

Thanks for the input, you are 100% correct as I just learned. A C&R must go to the place listed on the license. I have a work around. I live across the street from the post office. My Dad with a C&R ships to his PO. So if I get a PO box I am back in business.

I know I will have to register the gun to comply to DC law, that is easy enough. The trap I am trying to avoid is DC handguns also have to go through a DC FFL. There is only one traditional FFL in DC and he charges $125 for each transfer. Silly money on a $200 relic. If I get the C&R I also would be an FFL for some guns. I believe from what MPD has said I could circumvent the other FFL transfer and just pay the $13 registration fee.

I have already been finger printed, background checked, knowledge tested, mentally stable certified, and range trained to DCs standards. Good grief!?!? I am on the $13 per gun plan now, I would rather not pay $125 to pad some guy's pocket. If that means I can only have a metric ton of C&R surplus commie guns that are fun to shoot and cheap to feed, so be it.


Edit: TBH I always thought when I get the money I would love to have a stable of handguns that are Colt, Sig, Glock, and Beretta. The norm. Well I have the money to build the collection and it might be all ex-commie guns. I am not complaining. They all look strangely interesting... I mean exotic.

sounds like you've got things pretty squared away then, im really glad to hear that someone in DC will be able to use a C&R.

and hey, dont just look at the commie guns, there's tons of C&R european and american stuff too.

C&R doesnt mean only obsolete, cheap and commie, there are some very fine handguns you can get C&R.

the cool thing is using your C&R you can go to the local gun shows too and buy cash and carry, not just mail order. well, not handguns in MD, but you can go to the nations gunshow in chantilly and find tons of stuff to buy there.

again, i think your biggest obstacle is gonna be getting folks to sell to you after they see that you're a DC resident.

 

[Markp]

again, i think your biggest obstacle is gonna be getting folks to sell to you after they see that you're a DC resident.

Yep, print out 18 USC 923 (j) and bring it with you, because that's the law that matters. You should be able to buy any C&R gun anywhere at anytime, cash and carry. Bringing it into DC however requires registration, but that's not a concern when you purchase out of state.

Mark

 

[BlueHeeler]

FTF is NOT legal in MD for a pistol, it has to go through an FFL DEALER in MD, however 2 C&R holders could travel to Virginia and swap C&R guns all day long. Both are federal licensees and neither has to be at their premise to purchase, but they must have a valid C&R and proof of ID. AFAIK.

This section is actually very funny. I could not buy a gun FTF from an individual C&R in Silver Spring, but if we both drive to Rosslyn it is perfectly legal.

Q: What may a licensed dealer do at an out-of-State gun show?


A licensed dealer may sell and deliver curio or relic firearms to another licensee at an out-of-State gun show. With respect to other firearms transactions, a licensed dealer may only display and take orders for firearms at an out-of-State gun show. In filling any orders for firearms, the dealer must return the firearms to his or her licensed premises and deliver them from that location. Any firearm ordered by a non-licensee must be delivered or shipped from the licensee’s premises to a licensee in the purchaser’s State of residence, and the purchaser must obtain the firearm from the licensee located in the purchaser’s State. Except for sales of curio or relic firearms to other licensees, sales of firearms and simultaneous deliveries at the gun show, whether to other licensees or to non-licensees, violate the law because the dealer would be unlawfully engaging in business at an unlicensed location.

See Curios and Relics are treated just a little differently... You can dispose of or receive curios and relics anywhere.

18 USC 923 (j) ... Nothing in this subsection shall be construed to diminish in any manner any right to display, sell, or otherwise dispose of firearms or ammunition, which is in effect before the date of the enactment of the Firearms Owners’ Protection Act, including the right of a licensee to conduct “curios or relics” firearms transfers and business away from their business premises with another licensee without regard as to whether the location of where the business is conducted is located in the State specified on the license of either licensee.

So that's the bit of law that makes it clear.

Mark

That helps!

 

[BlueHeeler]

sounds like you've got things pretty squared away then, im really glad to hear that someone in DC will be able to use a C&R.

and hey, dont just look at the commie guns, there's tons of C&R european and american stuff too.

C&R doesnt mean only obsolete, cheap and commie, there are some very fine handguns you can get C&R.

the cool thing is using your C&R you can go to the local gun shows too and buy cash and carry, not just mail order. well, not handguns in MD, but you can go to the nations gunshow in chantilly and find tons of stuff to buy there.

again, i think your biggest obstacle is gonna be getting folks to sell to you after they see that you're a DC resident.

Looks like July 30 I will be at the Dulles Expo Center, providing the C&R is completed by then. Or October 1… or November 19. I am sure you are correct; getting any dealer to go near a DC resident is going to be a trick in itself.

I have plenty of time to learn more about what is available on the list which is not a bad thing.

 

[Chaunsey]

i dont even pay attention to the list honestly,the vast majority of guns that qualify as C&R are over 50 years old.

anything over 50 is C&R, doesnt have to be on the list, the list really only matters for special cases like the cz-82, yugo SKS, certain makarovs etc.

 

[BlueHeeler]

i dont even pay attention to the list honestly,the vast majority of guns that qualify as C&R are over 50 years old.

anything over 50 is C&R, doesnt have to be on the list, the list really only matters for special cases like the cz-82, yugo SKS, certain makarovs etc.

That is good to know. Plus I just found on gun broker there is a C&R section, 90 pages infact. I think I am getting a better idea of what is availabe. There are some quality guns in there.

I am off to the poor house!

 

[Chaunsey]

That is good to know. Plus I just found on gun broker there is a C&R section, 90 pages infact. I think I am getting a better idea of what is availabe. There are some quality guns in there.

I am off to the poor house!

ive been doing this for a few years im already there!

we can talk guns while waiting in the soup line