My head hurts (AR15 questions)

[LANDFORGOTTEN]

I am looking to purchase my first one. I have carried and/or used M16/M4 in military service but really did not really learn about them. Hopefully you all will provide some more information so I can make a somewhat education decision. I have not found the certainty I was looking for while searching this forum as new to Maryland and all over the internet to find consensus of information concerning the following:

1.) Rifle twist. 1/7 vs 1/9, and maybe even 1/8?

2.) Quality versus price, I do not mind spending more but at what cost for what improvement in quality/reliability? What are top of the line, middle of the road and the bottom of the barrel?

3.) Anything else you think I should know, or your two cents?

Thanks and I appreciate you providing your opinions/thoughts!

 

[Russ D]

We need to know what configuration you are looking for and exactly what your intended use and expecations are. Right now Colt, Daniel Defense, and BCM make very good off the shelf rifles for reasonable prices. You can spend less but that's were the proven $ starts.

 

[BradMacc82]

Brands - everyone has their own preference, Colt's always been the gold standard, but a few other maker's are on par with Colt. BCM, Spike's, Daniel Defense and so on - all make quality rifles. Prices reflect that at times, but even if you don't want to drop 1k (or more), there's quality options for reasonable prices, Palmetto State Armory comes to mind.

Twist - really comes down to YOUR intended use, plan on doing match type shooting - 1:7 will stabilize those long/heavy match rounds the best. 1:9 - it'll handle a good variety of rounds, up to 75gr rather well (at least in my experience). 1:8 seems to be a good middle ground, but as I haven't shot one - I can't say for certain.

What type of budget and use do you have in mind?, that'd help us narrow the field some for you.

 

[SCARCQB]

1.) Rifle twist. 1/7 vs 1/9, and maybe even 1/8?

Depends on the type of ammo that you will shoot.

the old m16a1 had a 1:12 twist rate.. that was optimized for the 55grain fmj. The heavier the projectile, the faster twist rate. It is like stabilizing a football. Over-spinning can cause the projectile to yaw. so the right twist-rate/ ammo combination is required to get the maximum accuracy from your AR. 1:9 is good for general use. It can handle anything lighter than 62 grains. 1:8 for 20 " service type/ cmp rifles using heavier projectiles and 1:7 ( 62 grains or heavier)if you are going with a M4. ( original m4's have 14.5" barrels, a faster twist rate is required to stabilize heavy bullets in shorter barrels) or Short barreled rifles.

2.) Quality versus price, I do not mind spending more but at what cost for what improvement in quality/reliability? What are top of the line, middle of the road and the bottom of the barrel?

you will always want a Chrome lined barrel. For accuracy, go with a heavy barrel.( you cant go wrong with a 1:9 or 1:7 twist rate) with m4 feed ramps.

3.) Anything else you think I should know, or your two cents? Only buy from reputable builders or Tier 1 manufacturers.

Good ones are from Colt ( LE6920), BCM, DD, Armalite, Bushmaster, RRA, LWRC.. I usually recommend the Colt LE6920 or 6920 Socom ( heavier barrel). This allows you to focus on having fun and improving shooting skills, instead of figuring out how to get things to work right.

Other manufacturers....forces you to spend more time and money on fixes.

I also have to mention to not get too excited about piston systems. Stay away from those. Just remember to keep your AR well lubricated. It will run dirty as long as it is well oiled.

Good luck!

scarcqb

 

[LANDFORGOTTEN]

Price does not matter, what matters is being satisfied with what I am buying, I rarely impulse buy.

I am thinking about getting into long range/or at least having fun shooting at targets at distance. I shot expert in the military everytime with iron sights. I definitely want iron sights, but am thinking about adding a sight for fun, and used an ACOG in combat and was very comfortable with it. That being said home defense is always a huge thought in my mind.

I am thinking I must just visit a few or a bunch of dealers and put my hands on quite a few different makes/models. I already visited one local dealer here in SOMD I would not say it was a bad experience but I did not feel comfortable(they are not on the industries partners list).

(keep your thoughts coming, it is appreciated)

 

[gmhowell]

SoMD? Skip Fred's. Screw Fred's.

Define what you mean by 'long range'. You'll find that that covers a lot of ground in these discussions.

 

[Boom Boom]

I attached a helpful chart regarding twist rates. The twist rate you choose depends on what bullet weight(s) you primarily intend to shoot. Assuming you're not going to shoot varmint rounds below 55gr, 1x7 or 1x8 is probably the way to go. Faster twist rates (1x7) still work well with lighter (shorter) bullets, but slower twist rates (1x9) often do not work well with heavy (longer) bullets.

If you want to buy a complete rifle, buy a basic one from a manufacturer of complete rifles that is well-regarded for standing behind their products. For high-quality at good to fair prices, I like Colt and Stag.

Regardless of what manufacturer you choose, you want one that will repair/replace their rifles without hassle in a reasonable time frame if/when things go wrong. The less-reputable manufacturers might leave you stuck with a non-functional POS, without a rifle for months on end as your rifle collects dust "waiting" at a repair facility, or with you sending back the rifle over and over again to fix whatever they broke while "fixing" something else.

It's best not to over-analyze every detail. The main things besides twist rate to decide on are:
1) what style you like (such as 16" carbine versus 20" rifle)
2) Fixed composite stock versus collapsible stock
3) Light barrel (regulated) versus heavy barrel (non-regulated cash & carry)
4) Flat top versus integrated carry handle
One more option is free-float front tube/rail versus barrel-mounted, but worrying about that might be overkill if you don't need ultra precision with higher-end optics.

I suggest keeping it simple and relatively inexpensive for your first AR. Leave money in your budget for ammo, extra magazines, maybe a better rear iron sight, maybe a red dot sight, maybe a scope, etc. Looking back many moons, if I had it to do over again, my first AR-15 would be a Colt LE6920 or Stag Model 1 or 2 (with Plus Package). I own the latter now but it wasn't my first.

 

[Russ D]

Price does not matter, what matters is being satisfied with what I am buying, I rarely impulse buy.

I am thinking about getting into long range/or at least having fun shooting at targets at distance. I shot expert in the military everytime with iron sights. I definitely want iron sights, but am thinking about adding a sight for fun, and used an ACOG in combat and was very comfortable with it. That being said home defense is always a huge thought in my mind.

I am thinking I must just visit a few or a bunch of dealers and put my hands on quite a few different makes/models. I already visited one local dealer here in SOMD I would not say it was a bad experience but I did not feel comfortable(they are not on the industries partners list).

(keep your thoughts coming, it is appreciated)

Do as much Internet research as you can stomach before walking into a gunshop Simply fondling a rifle won't tell you squat.

 

[Boom Boom]

Do as much Internet research as you can stomach before walking into a gunshop Simply fondling a rifle won't tell you squat.

To a point. I agree that internet research is often invaluable and needs to happen first in order to have a good idea of what to look for, especially in regards to reliability. Too much internet research gets counterproductive when seeing all the little details jump out in person can make the decision process 10x easier, especially for manufacturing differences in quality and attention to detail that online reviews and forums might fail to mention or gloss over. I think we're on the same page, though.

 

[SCARCQB]

I would really suggest to look at the LE6920. I often shoot at Myrtle grove and since you rae thinking about an accurate intermediate range/ HD gun.. this fits the bill. with a 3x magnifier and good ammo, I can shoot sub moa groups with this rig.

This is also my HD gun. I use Blitz rounds on it for limited penetration. I can also use heavier penetrators for longer ranges and hardened targets. I like the acog too, but for cqb, they are useless. they shine at longer ranges. The Bindon aiming concept is cool, but trying to get that to work, when youre half awake at 2am.. is not ideal for HD.. I opted for an Eotech and FTS magnifier, backed up by a Matech BUIS.. co- witnessed.

I can flip the magnifier to the side, turn off the Eotech and use standard sights. The 3x magnifier allows for easy hits at com up to 600 yards.

 

[Russ D]

To a point. I agree that internet research is often invaluable and needs to happen first in order to have a good idea of what to look for, especially in regards to reliability. Too much internet research gets counterproductive when seeing all the little details jump out in person can make the decision process 10x easier, especially for manufacturing differences in quality and attention to detail that online reviews and forums might fail to mention or gloss over. I think we're on the same page, though.

In my experience anyone who asks these questions won't really know what they are looking for unless they read extensivley about the options. Even then just by looking at the different rifles you can't see the important stuff with your eye's anyway. If $ isn't an issue take a serious look at Noveske. They are built as well as any and the emphasis on accuracy will help with long range work. I'd also look at KAC if I had a lot of $ and wanted a superb rifle. You won't find many of those of local dealer shelves.

 

[dist1646]

My competition AR's are built on Armalite, Rock River and older Bushmaster lowers. I build my own uppers with most of the parts coming from White Oak Precision/ White Oak Arms. If you plan to shoot at distance, I highly recommend White Oak uppers. For out of the box, the Rock River or Armalite National Match rifles are excellent. I'm talking about precision shooting out to 600yds with Iron Sights in service rifle configuration. I am a High Master and Distinguished Rifleman and am very comfortable with these choices, knowing that the rifle is good enough to win as long as the loose nut behind the butt plate is. Go with a twist rate of 1-7 to 1-8. Personally, I like the 1-7.7 twist Krieger barrels, they cost more but last longer. I cleaned 600yds with a Krieger that had a logged 13,000rds but the X count was low (200-8x). If you are interested in competitive service rifle shooting, you will want to check out Maryland Rifle Club. They put on an excellent service rifle clinic each year. Also check out the Maryland State Rifle and Pistol Association.

 

[jmcgonig]

Price does not matter, what matters is being satisfied with what I am buying, I rarely impulse buy.

I am thinking about getting into long range/or at least having fun shooting at targets at distance. I shot expert in the military everytime with iron sights. I definitely want iron sights, but am thinking about adding a sight for fun, and used an ACOG in combat and was very comfortable with it. That being said home defense is always a huge thought in my mind.

I am thinking I must just visit a few or a bunch of dealers and put my hands on quite a few different makes/models. I already visited one local dealer here in SOMD I would not say it was a bad experience but I did not feel comfortable(they are not on the industries partners list).

(keep your thoughts coming, it is appreciated)

You are basically where I was 9-12 months ago. I went with a Colt 6920. Basically, you aren't going to buy a much better off the shelf rifle. Some people will say you overpay, but really its just a few bills between all of them in that range. I put a AimPoint Pro red dot w/ a flip over magnifier and couldn't be happier.

Good luck.

 

[jrumann59]

You are basically where I was 9-12 months ago. I went with a Colt 6920. Basically, you aren't going to buy a much better off the shelf rifle. Some people will say you overpay, but really its just a few bills between all of them in that range. I put a AimPoint Pro red dot w/ a flip over magnifier and couldn't be happier.

Good luck.

When I was new to AR game and the Ford vs Chevy argument was always there. So I built my own a least that way I had a good understanding of why brand x is better than brand Y. Do not get me wrong there is nothing wrong with buying a fully assembled rifle. I just like being able to see the fits and finishes of all my parts that way when the upgrade talk comes it is easy to visualize and understand.

 

[Indiana Jones]

ARs are simple. Some people make them seem like rocket science.

Brand is a very heated personal opinion topic. Colt is the first one I ever got. "If its not a colt it's a copy" ...meh. My colt is GREAT. But I shoot my Bushmaster FAR more. Daniel Defense makes nice rifles but not anything different than anyone else. They charge far more, and their rails are overpriced and heavy. If you get a Daniel defense you'd do we'll to sell the monstrosity rail and upgrade. You'll still have money left over. Or you could just get plain GI hand guards and put the rail money into an optic or ammo.

Twist I honestly am out of my league to try and describe as I don't fully understand it myself.

 

[niftyvt]

I vote BCM (go for a BFH barrel) but I am looking at a Noveske Gen2 Chainsaw lower (price is great and it still has their full warranty, it just might be a little beat up out of the box) to go with my BCM upper. BCM test fires all their stuff before it leaves the factory too. My upper and bolt carrier group were a little dirty when I got them

I also highly recommend the S&W M&P 15, they even come in mid length now! My M&P has been great and I can easily make hits out to 300 yards (with pmc bronze or privi m193) and probably more but I havent had the chance to shoot that far yet. I have beat the crap out of it and it still works great. The only problem I have had was a firing pin froze up on me due to carbon/mud/grim build up, and that was on a spikes NiB bolt carrier group. The funny thing is that I tortured the stock bolt way more than the spikes NiB bolt carrier group and the stock bolt group never had a problem. . .I am now back to the stock bolt as my primary and the Spikes NiB is my back up bolt carrier group.

Pictures to push the m&p

 

[swinokur]

Stick with the major brands. I have a Colt 6920 and it's great You can never go wrong with the Colt as others have noted.

I have a DD M4V5 300 Blk too. more money, more gun

 

[huesmann]

I can flip the magnifier to the side, turn off the Eotech and use standard sights. The 3x magnifier allows for easy hits at com up to 600 yards.

Holy crap, dude. You must have eagle eyes or something. I doubt I could even see a target at 600 yards, even 3x.

 

[Jstevens56]

I vote BCM (go for a BFH barrel) but I am looking at a Noveske Gen2 Chainsaw lower (price is great and it still has their full warranty, it just might be a little beat up out of the box) to go with my BCM upper. BCM test fires all their stuff before it leaves the factory too. My upper and bolt carrier group were a little dirty when I got them

I also highly recommend the S&W M&P 15, they even come in mid length now! My M&P has been great and I can easily make hits out to 300 yards (with pmc bronze or privi m193) and probably more but I havent had the chance to shoot that far yet. I have beat the crap out of it and it still works great. The only problem I have had was a firing pin froze up on me due to carbon/mud/grim build up, and that was on a spikes NiB bolt carrier group. The funny thing is that I tortured the stock bolt way more than the spikes NiB bolt carrier group and the stock bolt group never had a problem. . .I am now back to the stock bolt as my primary and the Spikes NiB is my back up bolt carrier group.

Pictures to push the m&p

I love that Troy rail

 

[-Z/28-]

-Twist rate I'd say 1:7. I hate to use the "that's what the military uses" line, but it is and it's fairy versatile. The most common loads out there are 55, 62, and 75gr which 1:7 will shoot acceptably well.

-As far as price and quality, you can have both. For the best value, you may want buy it in components. That way you can shop around. Besides the big names like Colt, Daniel Defense, S&W, Knights, etc... don't forget companies like Spikes Tactical, Bravo Company, CMMG, Palmetto State, and Stag.

Personally my carbine is a homebrew built on a Spikes lower with a CMMG M4 upper. The lower internals are PSA.

Pic for your viewing pleasure: