my 9mm loads

[boriquais]

lessons learned

Federal has good brass BTW. I find I have less deformation with them than WWB brass.

Funny you mention that FC is good brass. Which I'm not saying its not.
After all im just a noob to this reloading game. But I had one hell of a time
keeping the plated xtreme bullets from setting back. I Messed with my dies till my fingers bled, and I still was having setback issues.
I was totally stumped, because as a test I would make a dummy with my 147 hard cast and those would not set back.
I would also use rp or win with the xtreme,no set back with them either.
Problem was I had already primed 100 cases of fc so I wanted to use them.

My thinking is that fc is thinner, and the xtreme are .355 (the lead are .356 so I think that's why they held fine)
so it was leading to my set back. I got it to where it set back less than .005, then I set my oal higher than my original 1.100
to compensate for any possible setback during 2 chambering.

Lessons learned:
1: Try to be more precise and notice that fc and .fc. are not necessarily the same
2: Save my fc brass for lead loads
3: I have gorrilla hands and overthink everything.
4: 9mm is finicky
5: hs6 meters excellent
6: Reloading is addictive

 

[Traveler]

Some say the Federal brass is softer.
Winchester, Star, and Remington seem to be favorites.

 

[byf43]

I guess I'm the anomaly.

I LIKE Federal brass. Rifle, pistol. Shotgun.... not-so-much!

I've had more issues with Starline brass, than any other. I've had Starline brass that wouldn't hold a 200 gr LSWC in .45 acp, but, any other brass - new, old, 'ratted' from the range, etc.


But then again, I've never expected brass to last forever.


Got Federal brass that you don't want?????????
Give me a shout! IF it's a caliber that I load for, I'll take it!

 

[boriquais]

Hey guys thanks again for all the info. As a beginner you don't understand how valuable this is!

Magnumite My attention span is horrible but I just read your first post about pressure again. I Remember starting on the reloading forums here asking about +p load. Dumb I know but we all gotta start somewhere. Anyways, Having said pressure you got my mind flowing. You said the load might not have generated sufficient pressure to expand the case. IIRC Oal deals with pressure, seat too deep and you will run the risk of over pressuring a round. Instead of more powder can I just seat deeper? My original depth I was aiming for was 1.095 of course with the issues stated above I just made them longer.

 

[alucard0822]

Most powders have an ideal pressure range, and character. Some like HS-6, and autocomp need a fair amount of pressure to burn clean and consistent, low end loads will be sooty, and can vary a lot in velocity. For instance my 9mm major loads with a 124gr XTP over HS-6 charge at 8gr @ 1300+ FPS and according to the data I got it from it runs just under max +p pressure, burns clean, no pressure signs, but definitely a hot load, it takes 7gr or better before HS-6 really wakes up. For lighter IDPA competition loads just over 1000fps I liked 3.5gr of clays under a plated 124, cheap clean and accurate, about 4.5gr of bullseye is good too.

The small charges of fast powder gets to a decent pressure, then the pressure drops quickly, so it burns thoroughly, but gives a low velocity compared to a slow powder that keeps it's pressure much longer. Some don't like loads that aren't in that powder or bullet manufacturer's manual, but there are plenty of loads where the "max" shows pressure way under the SAAMI spec for that caliber, might be because it shoots like crap with that bullet, might be because that powder gets unstable and exponentially increases pressure with small increments above that, or might just be because they didn't test it further, but some sources like realguns, gun mags, handloading sites, or datasheets have tested and safe data.

eta:

Hey guys thanks again for all the info. As a beginner you don't understand how valuable this is!

Magnumite My attention span is horrible but I just read your first post about pressure again. I Remember starting on the reloading forums here asking about +p load. Dumb I know but we all gotta start somewhere. Anyways, Having said pressure you got my mind flowing. You said the load might not have generated sufficient pressure to expand the case. IIRC Oal deals with pressure, seat too deep and you will run the risk of over pressuring a round. Instead of more powder can I just seat deeper? My original depth I was aiming for was 1.095 of course with the issues stated above I just made them longer.

If you are getting setback with a simple chambering or two, there is something wrong, and it has to be found and corrected before you can go further. Reducing OAL does increase pressure, but nowhere near as consistently as changes in charge, some powders like power pistol aren't that sensitive, and the velocity increases slow and steady up to and including compressed charges, others like bullseye increase a ton with minor changes, and the pressure can double with a mere .1" reduction in OAL in a small volume/high pressure caliber like 9mm. Make sure the brass is clean, the soot can throw off dimentions when sizing, and can reduce neck tension when seating, might also want to post size and make sure your crimp is sufficient.

 

[boriquais]

Federal has good brass BTW. I find I have less deformation with them than WWB brass.

Most powders have an ideal pressure range, and character. Some like HS-6, and autocomp need a fair amount of pressure to burn clean and consistent, low end loads will be sooty, and can vary a lot in velocity. For instance my 9mm major loads with a 124gr XTP over HS-6 charge at 8gr @ 1300+ FPS and according to the data I got it from it runs just under max +p pressure, burns clean, no pressure signs, but definitely a hot load, it takes 7gr or better before HS-6 really wakes up. For lighter IDPA competition loads just over 1000fps I liked 3.5gr of clays under a plated 124, cheap clean and accurate, about 4.5gr of bullseye is good too.

The small charges of fast powder gets to a decent pressure, then the pressure drops quickly, so it burns thoroughly, but gives a low velocity compared to a slow powder that keeps it's pressure much longer. Some don't like loads that aren't in that powder or bullet manufacturer's manual, but there are plenty of loads where the "max" shows pressure way under the SAAMI spec for that caliber, might be because it shoots like crap with that bullet, might be because that powder gets unstable and exponentially increases pressure with small increments above that, or might just be because they didn't test it further, but some sources like realguns, gun mags, handloading sites, or datasheets have tested and safe data.

eta:


If you are getting setback with a simple chambering or two, there is something wrong, and it has to be found and corrected before you can go further. Reducing OAL does increase pressure, but nowhere near as consistently as changes in charge, some powders like power pistol aren't that sensitive, and the velocity increases slow and steady up to and including compressed charges, others like bullseye increase a ton with minor changes, and the pressure can double with a mere .1" reduction in OAL in a small volume/high pressure caliber like 9mm. Make sure the brass is clean, the soot can throw off dimentions when sizing, and can reduce neck tension when seating, might also want to post size and make sure your crimp is sufficient.

Alu, I hear you on the setback. Hence why the bloody fingers. I am set up on a lee pro1000. All cases tumbled in lizard bedding till shinny new looking. From what I read (and experienced)crimping "more" had no effect on the setback. I ruined like 10 bullets trying to crimp them tighter. Figured out that I was probably flaring too much so that was messing with neck tension.
broke the machine down and readjusted my dies. I was able to correct the problem but set back like I said was around .005 x2 chamberings. Using diff brass of course no set back at all so hence why I said fc must be thinner.

just read this over on enos forum: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=103799

 

[alucard0822]

Alu, I hear you on the setback. Hence why the bloody fingers. I am set up on a lee pro1000. All cases tumbled in lizard bedding till shinny new looking. From what I read (and experienced)crimping "more" had no effect on the setback. I ruined like 10 bullets trying to crimp them tighter. Figured out that I was probably flaring too much so that was messing with neck tension.
broke the machine down and readjusted my dies. I was able to correct the problem but set back like I said was around .005 x2 chamberings. Using diff brass of course no set back at all so hence why I said fc must be thinner.

The pro1000 has a ton of flex, and inconsistent results, but it's unbeatable as far as cost of a progressive press(I have 2 for bulk ammo). The key is to set up the sizing die first, turn it till it makes contact with the shellplate, then turn an additional 1/2 turn, set the other dies up based on this, bell the mouth as little as you can, 9mm is sharply tapered, and there isn't as much bullet in the case as most other calibers, so that is very important. You can get a different OAL with this press when completing a single round vs having 3 in the shellplate as it normally would due to the flex, the added resistance of cases getting seated and belled also can leave the sizing die with a bit of a gap to the shellplate, and undersize that case, not a problem you see on stronger presses. The Lee seating die is fine for seating, horrible at crimping, it won't quite iron out the belled mouth before it crushes the case, and can actually crush the case inward leaving the area just behind the mouth belled outward. The factory crimp die is far better, and it post sizes, meaning it sizes the case after the bullet is seated to iron out any remaining belling, or bulges from seating. If the sizing die doesn't fully seat, being tapered it leaves the case oversized, if you have another press try it in that, if not, might be a defective die, which isn't unheard of. I had one where the carbide insert was seated too deep, another came loose, and a couple that were pretty rough.

 

[ihriec]

I've had the best success reloading with Federal and Winchester Brass, specifically 38, 357 and 45. Plan to start reloading 9mm soon when my wife gets her P95.

 

[Magnumite]

boriquais, letting you know I wasn't criticizing your starting load, just pointing out the cause of the sooting. And we know you're a beginner at reloading so these occurance will add to your learning curve in the subject. My first two powders were Blue Dot and Green Dot. I found in my first two batches of reloads in 357 Magnum light loads were not Green Dot's forte'. After reassessing and researching some more I determined my third powder, Bullseye, was a light load standard. Took me years to use up that single pound of Green Dot.

I had a string of setback related feeding failures on several of my 1911's. I had changed bullet brands but used the same weight style bullets. It turned out to be the bullets - Rainier, Xtreme and somewhat Berry's. I had merely loaded them with the same flair I used with lead bullets. Yah, much more neck tension required. As alucard said, minimal flair should be used - and absolute minimum at that. The coefficient of friction on those brands of bullets is lower than lead or jacketed because I didn't, and don't, have any issues with the latter two types.

Good luck to ya

 

[IndispensableDestiny]

I have been loading 6.9 grains of HS-6 under 115 gr SJHP bullets without sooting. The brass has been Starline and Speer. I turn the die down against the case and seated bullet by hand to set the crimp. No setback in my Sig P229.

 

[IndispensableDestiny]

For instance my 9mm major loads with a 124gr XTP over HS-6 charge at 8gr @ 1300+ FPS and according to the data I got it from it runs just under max +p pressure,

I'm interested in knowing what published source lists 8 grains of HS-6 under a 124 grain bullet.

 

[boriquais]

I'm interested in knowing what published source lists 8 grains of HS-6 under a 124 grain bullet.

I think he posted a 9mm major load which shouldn't be in any manual.

 

[BRONZ]

What I hate about shooting crapy reloading powder is the puff of smoke that comes out the muzzle.

We had an IDPA guy shooting his reloads and damn it look like we were shooting cap and ball.

 

[Deep Creek Rock]

What I hate about shooting crapy reloading powder is the puff of smoke that comes out the muzzle.

We had an IDPA guy shooting his reloads and damn it look like we were shooting cap and ball.

Id be willing to bet the smoke is the lube burning off from the cast bullet - not the powder. Reloading your own with modern smokeless isnt going to make your rounds more smokey-the burning bullet lube does. Some lubes are worse then others.

As far as crimping - on straightwall cases like on (9mm, 40S&W, 45ACP etc) that headspace on the mouth - the crimp is basically just removal of the belling of the case from flaring. You do not need to squeeze the living shit out of the bullet. If you are in doubt on how much crimp to use - look on a SAAMI diagram. They will show you a spec at the case mouth, which is what the mouth diameter should be after crimping. If you are using a factory crimp die, most of the times, and half of a turn on the setting knob is sufficient for straightwall taper crimped rounds.

Sooting can also be caused by excessive air in the case. Some powders are more prone to this then others. Ideally the powder that fills the case more to achieve the desired velocity, will aid in reducing that.

 

[Magnumite]

++++++111111111. ^^^^^^^^^

 

[alucard0822]

I'm interested in knowing what published source lists 8 grains of HS-6 under a 124 grain bullet.

I have a few articles with load data, and a few in my log book that came from calls to manufacturers. Even then there can be some difference between sources with the same components, compare VV/Lapua(hot) to hodgdon(mild). That particular load IIRC came from an article about 9mm major loads, I actually toned it down a bit(IIRC pressure was still just under 40K at the Max around 8.2gr), and it just barely makes 1300 from my 5" M&P, which ends up about 161PF a bit short of Major in USPSA, but it's a hot accurate load with no pressure signs. To each their own, work up all your loads yourself. Here is another source I like, it's basically the mecca of 460Rowland data, and a few 9mm+p loads.
http://www.realguns.com/loads/9mm+P.htm

From my Lee manual the HS6 load for a 124gr FMJ@1.090(pretty short) is max 6.8gr, good for 1169fps at a puny 27.1k. decent velocity despite being more than 10k PSI UNDER +p specs, and pressure would be less when loaded to a standard SAAMI 1.169 OAL with a FMJ. Pretty evident there is substantial room till this even gets to standard pressure, although it does take known data or experienced care to get the potential out of it safely.

 

[tdt91]

Use HS-6 when loading hot for rounds like Home defense hollow points. It will push the bullet fast which is needed for the expansion.

I use titgroup for light loads / FMJ. steel plate shoooting.