MSP being ridiculous about my CCW app.

[Overboost44]

Thanks. This is more than a hit to me. This is a hit to all of us. I know MD is unreasonable, but I even applied under circumstances that other permit holders have already used to apply. This goes to show you that MSP abide by NO rules at all. I am hoping to to appeal and make this an event for all of us to look back on with promise. I am not done by a long shot.

Thanks Tim. It means a lot that you will keep fighting. This does have bigger meaning than just one (your) case.

 

[Gryphon]

Okay here are my thoughts, and a few excerpts, and I admit I am really tired tonight:

Secretary means Pallozzi or his designee.

Perhaps not absolutely 100% clear, but it seems implicit to the appeal process that if the Super's designee makes the initial decision, that the Super needs to be involved in the informal appeal. How can the same person, or designee, that denied the permit the first time around be the decision maker in the informal appeal? That would amount to nothing more than reconsideration, NOT and appeal. The COMAR regulations may help in this regard - just can't remember right now. Besides, if the Super is being genuine, and really is 2A supportive, and gives a damn, he should be involving himself in the appeal process not hiding from it.

§ 5-301. Definitions.

(a) In general. — In this subtitle the following words have the meanings indicated.
(b) Board. — “Board” means the Handgun Permit Review Board.

***

(f) Secretary. — “Secretary” means the Secretary of State Police or the Secretary’s designee.

§ 5-311. Informal review of Secretary’s action.

(a) Request for informal review. — A person who is denied a permit or renewal of a permit or whose permit is revoked or limited may request the Secretary to conduct an informal review by filing a written request within 10 days after receipt of written notice of the Secretary’s initial action.
(b) Personal interview. — An informal review1) may include a personal interview of the person who requested the informal review; and
(2) is not subject to Title 10, Subtitle 2 of the State Government Article.

(c) Action by Secretary. — In an informal review, the Secretary shall sustain, reverse, or modify the initial action taken and notify the person who requested the informal review of the decision in writing within 30 days after receipt of the request for informal review.

§ 5-312. Action by Board.

(a) Request for review authorized. — (1) A person who is denied a permit or renewal of a permit or whose permit is revoked or limited may request the Board to review the decision of the Secretary by filing a written request with the Board within 10 days after receipt of written notice of the Secretary’s final action.
(2) A person whose application for a permit or renewal of a permit is not acted on by the Secretary within 90 days after submitting the application to the Secretary may request a hearing before the Board by filing a written request with the Board.

(b) Form of review. — Within 90 days after receiving a request to review a decision of the Secretary, the Board shall1) review the record developed by the Secretary; or
(2) conduct a hearing.

(c) Evidence. — The Board may receive and consider additional evidence submitted by a party in conducting a review of the decision of the Secretary.
(d) Decision by Board. — (1) Based on the Board’s consideration of the record and any additional evidence, the Board shall sustain, reverse, or modify the decision of the Secretary.
(2) If the action by the Board results in the denial of a permit or renewal of a permit or the revocation or limitation of a permit, the Board shall submit in writing to the applicant or the holder of the permit the reasons for the action taken by the Board.

 

[montoya32]

Okay here are my thoughts, and a few excerpts, and I admit I am tired tonight:

Secretary means Pallozzi or his designee.

Perhaps not absolutely 100% clear, but it seems implicit to the appeal process that if the Super's designee makes the initial decision, that the Super needs to be involved in the informal appeal. How can the same person, or designee, that denied the permit the first time around be the decision maker in the informal appeal? That would amount to nothing more than reconsideration, NOT and appeal. The COMAR regulations may help in this regard - just can't remember right now. Besides, if the Super is being genuine, and really is 2A supportive, and gives a damn, he should be involving himself in the appeal process not hiding from it.

§ 5-301. Definitions.

(a) In general. — In this subtitle the following words have the meanings indicated.
(b) Board. — “Board” means the Handgun Permit Review Board.

***

(f) Secretary. — “Secretary” means the Secretary of State Police or the Secretary’s designee.

§ 5-311. Informal review of Secretary’s action.

(a) Request for informal review. — A person who is denied a permit or renewal of a permit or whose permit is revoked or limited may request the Secretary to conduct an informal review by filing a written request within 10 days after receipt of written notice of the Secretary’s initial action.
(b) Personal interview. — An informal review1) may include a personal interview of the person who requested the informal review; and
(2) is not subject to Title 10, Subtitle 2 of the State Government Article.

(c) Action by Secretary. — In an informal review, the Secretary shall sustain, reverse, or modify the initial action taken and notify the person who requested the informal review of the decision in writing within 30 days after receipt of the request for informal review.

§ 5-312. Action by Board.

(a) Request for review authorized. — (1) A person who is denied a permit or renewal of a permit or whose permit is revoked or limited may request the Board to review the decision of the Secretary by filing a written request with the Board within 10 days after receipt of written notice of the Secretary’s final action.
(2) A person whose application for a permit or renewal of a permit is not acted on by the Secretary within 90 days after submitting the application to the Secretary may request a hearing before the Board by filing a written request with the Board.

(b) Form of review. — Within 90 days after receiving a request to review a decision of the Secretary, the Board shall1) review the record developed by the Secretary; or
(2) conduct a hearing.

(c) Evidence. — The Board may receive and consider additional evidence submitted by a party in conducting a review of the decision of the Secretary.
(d) Decision by Board. — (1) Based on the Board’s consideration of the record and any additional evidence, the Board shall sustain, reverse, or modify the decision of the Secretary.
(2) If the action by the Board results in the denial of a permit or renewal of a permit or the revocation or limitation of a permit, the Board shall submit in writing to the applicant or the holder of the permit the reasons for the action taken by the Board.

So I may write the request for appeal and include additional info with my request as well as take it with me to the review. I really wish I had money to sue the bastards.

 

[Gryphon]

This is what puzzles me. So you are saying you actually get a sit down with the Don? Is it just a five minute phone call? I can't contemplate the Superintendent personally fielding how many reviews?

I think you should. Whether it happens is admittedly another story. I recall something in the regulations or statutes,, but only had the time to check the statutes now. When I get a chance I'll check the regs and follow up. I recall reading the statute and being incredulous that the bureaucrat that issued the denial was in charge of the informal review - what's the point? And then seeing something elsewhere in the statute or perhaps the regulations in COMAR that convinced me the Super was supposed to do the informal review. Now I have a reason the check.

 

[Gryphon]

So I may write the request for appeal and include additional info with my request as well as take it with me to the review. I really wish I had money to sue the bastards.

I think you would want to request the informal appeal before the Superintendent. I think Pollazzzi should show, but I have to go back and look at the regulations to confirm that expectation is reasonable. Its been a while since I thoroughly reviewed both the statutes and the regs. But my point is to do everything possible to hold the current true decision makers accountable.

Nothing to keep you from introducing more evidence during the informal.

Should you not prevail, you can appeal to the Board. Pallozzi should be there, he is the chairman, but his vote may be watered down by Owe's appointees. But the statute is absolutely clear that you may present additional evidence at the Board hearing too.

Suing is not a viable option until after you have exhausted your administrative remedies, i.e. had your informal review and final action by the board. As I undersatand your circs, they are different from prior denials, i.e. demanding a sponsoring letter from a non-employer is totally arbitrary. I would hope someone above a designee status would make that right.

Either way I commend your actions. The more of us that apply the more we expose the system for just what it is, and the more opportunities we give the current administration to correct it or expose them as more of the same.

Last, you may want to defer the informal until after Sine Die if possible. The bills have been drawered so it shouldn't make a difference, but I suppose a conscious decision may have been made not to implement any new policy until after Sine Die. Admittedly that is wishful thinking. I hope there is going to be new policy. I'd like to vote for and support Hogan again in 4 years.

 

[redeemed.man]

Does anyone know the difference of the formal and informal appeal process? It says the super reviews the informal appeal, but that the handgun permit review board reviews the formal appeal. Who actually reviews the permits for the super or does he actually review them himself? At this time, the handgun permit review board would be all of O'Malley's appointees, correct?

Take the informal route. You will sit down with a trooper and attempt to justify your G&S. If it fails go to the HPRB next. Don't give up Tim.

I had my restrictions relaxed at an informal review after initially having my modification request denied. Same Sgt. as you, he was Cpl. then. In any event my informal review changed his mind.

 

[The sphinx]

Thanks. This is more than a hit to me. This is a hit to all of us. I know MD is unreasonable, but I even applied under circumstances that other permit holders have already used to apply. This goes to show you that MSP abide by NO rules at all. I am hoping to to appeal and make this an event for all of us to look back on with promise. I am not done by a long shot.

Keep up the good fight sir!

 

[Schipperke]

Thanks for the statute definitions. aka "screwed". Appears an informal interview can amount to someone reading a letter

 

[navycraig]

Last, you may want to defer the informal until after Sine Die if possible. The bills have been drawered so it shouldn't make a difference, but I suppose a conscious decision may have been made not to implement any new policy until after Sine Die. Admittedly that is wishful thinking. I hope there is going to be new policy. I'd like to vote for and support Hogan again in 4 years.

^^^This^^^

I really am hoping that changes are already in place and that they are simply waiting until after Sine Die to implement them. It's a long shot, maybe even a pipe dream, but there is a chance.

If changes are not made, gloves have to come off. Screw waiting until later in Hogan's term as some have suggested. That's garbage. There will always be another reason to wait...to give them time...to be patient. Screw that, it's time to kick up the heat and let them feel it.

 

[GrimReaper]

So I may write the request for appeal and include additional info with my request as well as take it with me to the review. I really wish I had money to sue the bastards.

I know a few members here are lawyers. They should step up and take your case for pro bono or at a discounted rate for the good of the community.

It would only take 1 victory to change everything for good.

 

[montoya32]

I know a few members here are lawyers. They should step up and take your case for pro bono or at a discounted rate for the good of the community.



It would only take 1 victory to change everything for good.

I don't expect that and I would never suggest that. I understand what you are saying, but this is their livelihood and I could not put that kind of burden on someone for my case.

 

[Schipperke]

D̶i̶d̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶o̶a̶r̶d̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶ ̶o̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶r̶u̶l̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶S̶u̶p̶e̶r̶i̶n̶t̶e̶n̶d̶e̶n̶t̶.̶ I think the Pallozzi thing has been a Red Herring from the start.

After reading the statute, I'll modify a previous post.

 

[Gryphon]

Here is the follow up I promised last night. I knew there was something I had noticed before, but just couldn't recall last night. Sorry I didn't get it sooner, I was struggling to stay up watching the Lady Terps kick some butt, and was working on a phone or tablet depending what battery wasn't dying at the moment:

Unlike the statutes I cited above, Title 29 of COMAR ("Dept. of State Police"), but particularly COMAR 29.03.02.01 "Definitions," does not define "Secretary" as the Secretary or his designee. In fact, "Secretary" is not defined at all. Instead "Secretary" [of the State Police], which is synonymous with Superintendent, is the term used in COMAR but it is NOT defined as the Secretary or his designee. Hence, the normal meaning is afforded to the term "Secretary."

This is important because 29.03.02.14 lays out the MSP's procedure for informal reviews and appeals to the HGRB as follows:

COMAR 29.03.02.14 Appeal.
A. Informal Review.(1) A person whose original or renewal permit application is denied or whose permit is revoked or limited may submit a written request to the Secretary for an informal review within 10 days after receipt of the notice of denial, revocation, or limitation.
(2) Upon receipt of a valid request, the Secretary shall review the action under informal review and may include a personal interview of the person requesting the informal review.
(3) The Secretary shall sustain, reverse, or modify the action under informal review and provide written notification to the person who requested the informal review within 30 days after receipt of the request for informal review.
(4) An informal review is not subject to State Government Article, Title 10, Subtitle 2, Annotated Code of Maryland.

B. Handgun Permit Review Board.(1) A person whose original or renewal permit application is denied or whose permit is revoked or limited may submit a written request to the Board to review the decision of the Secretary within 10 days after receipt of the notice of denial, revocation, or limitation.
(2) A person whose original or renewal permit application is not acted on by the Secretary within 90 days after submitting the application to the Secretary may submit a written request to the Board for a hearing.


Notice anything missing, i.e. no use of the term "designee" here? Hence, although the Superintendent/Secretary may delegate initial investigation to a designee under the statute, pursuant to the MSP's own regulations, as codified in the COMAR section cited above, the Secretary's involvement in an "informal review" is not expressly delegable to a designee. Also note that the Secretary does not have to grant an in person interview, and may self-perform the review and provide written notice.

Make no mistake, I am not saying Pollazzi can't delegate ministerial duties to staff, I am just saying his complete absence from the review and appeal process is not contemplated by the law.

Disregard this as mere word play if you wish, but I think Montoya32, as well as the rest of us, can and should rightfully expect Pollazzi's personal involvement (to some extent) during the informal review process. I do believe Pollazzi's involvement during an informal review is contemplated under the law. Besides, why wouldn't a supporter of the 2A want to exercise his authority!

Tim, seriously, I think you are entitled to have Pollazzi participate in some manner during the informal review, so I don't see the harm in asking. At least there is a chance it will be given more reasonable consideration than whatever you have gotten to date - even if its not an in-person interview. Good luck to you Sir. There are more of us in the pipeline behind you, testing the waters, and willing to push instead of just sitting on the sideline waiting.

 

[Schipperke]

I'm no a lawyer but;

(f) Secretary. — “Secretary” means the Secretary of State Police or the Secretary’s designee.

Designee is in the definition.

 

[Gryphon]

I'm no a lawyer but;

(f) Secretary. — “Secretary” means the Secretary of State Police or the Secretary’s designee.

Designee is in the definition.

True, but that's the definition in the statute, not the definition in COMAR. No mixing and matching from one to the other. And you don't have to be a lawyer, just sleep at a Holiday Inn!

But regardless, I am not saying Pollazzi can't delegate some duties to subordinates that would be stupid. I am just saying that the informal review is not expressly delegable to a designee under MSP's own regulations, and therefore some involvement on Pollazzi's part is reasonably expected. Otherwise what the hell is the point of asking a low level bureaucrat with no accountability to his superior the same question twice?

 

[Gryphon]

Montoya32, I hope some of this above is helpful to you. If not just disregard and carry on. I could tell from your testimony before the Senate Committee, and your posts here, how frustrated you are. Keep up the good fight.

 

[Schipperke]

True, but that's the definition in the statute, not the definition in COMAR. No mixing and matching from one to the other. And you don't have to be a lawyer, just sleep at a Holiday Inn!

But regardless, I am not saying Pollazzi can't delegate some duties to subordinates that would be stupid. I am just saying that the informal review is not expressly delegable to a designee under MSP's own regulations, and therefore some involvement on Pollazzi's part is reasonably expected. Otherwise what the hell is the point of asking a low level bureaucrat with no accountability to his superior the same question twice?

Happens all the time. Works exactly that way with property tax assessments in Montgomery. You can appeal to a three person "unpaid volunteer" panel.
The low level bureacrat may be the one at the next desk, not the same person.


Lets not forget this;

An informal review may include a personal interview of the person who requested the informal review;

The word shall is not there.

 

[Schipperke]

Anyway.. good luck with continuing the effort. It is pot odds at this point. You don't fold when you are this invested. Why most of us watch and wait instead of jumping through hoops to apply when we predictably know the answer. I do wish this state would let people defend themselves. My wife could really use a CCW, she does put herself in some risky situations as part of her business.

 

[LCPIWB]

From what I understand, the trooper, Sgt Knaub, processed the app and gave his findings to a supervisor who noted them and issued the disapproval based on his recommendation.

Oh yeah, that jerk-off. I meet with him a year after applying I got my app in post Wollard pre-stay, so I was one of the those pre-365 babies.
I really got under his skin when I told him I should sue him personally under Title 18 for denying my right. It got tense, I could see the vain in his neck pop out and he started going on whining about he has a family too feed too, blah blah blah.

I went with the informal review first, then requested a formal request. Was upset that I was not notified of when my case was to be heard for formal review. Have been busy with a baby, so have not had the time or the will to follow up.

 

[montoya32]

Montoya32, I hope some of this above is helpful to you. If not just disregard and carry on. I could tell from your testimony before the Senate Committee, and your posts here, how frustrated you are. Keep up the good fight.

Thank you very much!