MSP banned PSA AK 556 because of the wording in the website

[brianns]

Dunno, I’m mostly going by what I’ve read. My only experience dealing with them was when I moved here and submitted my 77R to register my handguns. I do think that the evidence on their web site speaks for itself.



Have to admit that I don’t know. I would really go through an FFL who knows the process. I was just at Engage Armament yesterday, and they told me that they’re working on appealing MSP’s determination on the Daniel Defense MK12. Maybe talk to them?

Check with Engage Armament. They are pretty versed in the sales of the legal AKs. They told me that the letters ‘AK’ are the disqualifiers for non 7.62x39 AK style rifles. So brands whose model #s are other than that are most likely ok to buy/sell rifle versions in Md. Recently there was a Polish 7.62x39 rifle legal for sale. See what that model# is and if it has some different parts from a regular AK.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Silence can also be violence... so what to do?

Strictly non verbal communications.

 

[teratos]

Silence can also be violence... so what to do?

We must hum an all inclusive, gender neutral tune of peace.

 

[MattFinals718]

Check with Engage Armament. They are pretty versed in the sales of the legal AKs. They told me that the letters ‘AK’ are the disqualifiers for non 7.62x39 AK style rifles. So brands whose model #s are other than that are most likely ok to buy/sell rifle versions in Md. Recently there was a Polish 7.62x39 rifle legal for sale. See what that model# is and if it has some different parts from a regular AK.

Interesting. I've talked with them myself (two years ago, though), and I had understood that the interpretation of that language in the law was that any AK models actually made by Kalashnikov are banned (e.g., the KR101 would not be legal here, even though it is functionally identical to many other 5.56 AKs that can be sold cash-and-carry in MD). I didn't realize that MSP was interpreting the law as any AK-pattern rifle that has "AK" in its name is banned.

 

[babalou]

So MSP will ban my banana if I call it a boom boom? With what fine investigative techniques and means does our illustrious MSP use these days?

Some here want to defend them because they are a LEOA, to your own 2A demise. They are no better then the charlatans and thieving revenue collectors in Annapolis who keep them on their leash to control and enslave this state’s occupants.

MSP are the states plantation overseers and slave catchers serving at the masters wish. Marylands defiance of the Constitution will never stop until either they are voted out or the complete conversion to socialist control has taken place.

The only saving grace now is a Constitutional decision from SCOTUS.

Nuff said here. Yup yup yup.

 

[brianns]

Interesting. I've talked with them myself (two years ago, though), and I had understood that the interpretation of that language in the law was that any AK models actually made by Kalashnikov are banned (e.g., the KR101 would not be legal here, even though it is functionally identical to many other 5.56 AKs that can be sold cash-and-carry in MD). I didn't realize that MSP was interpreting the law as any AK-pattern rifle that has "AK" in its name is banned.

Well it may be the Attorney General doing the interpreting and issuing guidance to the FFLs. I just recall the guys telling me a large portion of the issue was 'AK'. I bought a kit rebuild 'AK-74 style' rifle from them in 5.45x39. The legal frame used to build onto was from NodakSpud and model is officially a NDS-02. The rest is mostly a Bulgarian kit with a tapco trigger and magpul grip. You can get Arsenals as they have different model #s. But still the 7.62x39 is banned. I'm not sure why but the 7.62x39 must be extra more copier cat of the AK than the other calibers of 'military' AK rifles. (The OG of the AK world)

The Maryland Law doesn't always make sense because a lot is based off of the original regulated firearms list and then as time went on additional clarifications were made. New firearms were made too, that didn't get banned so its all confusing depending on how you approach the research. Like you might wonder why certain guns are not now banned when very similar looking or similarly functioning.

You can contact the State Police and they will explain some things and point you to the COMAR for your own reading.

 

[MattFinals718]

Well it may be the Attorney General doing the interpreting and issuing guidance to the FFLs. I just recall the guys telling me a large portion of the issue was 'AK'. I bought a kit rebuild 'AK-74 style' rifle from them in 5.45x39. The legal frame used to build onto was from NodakSpud and model is officially a NDS-02. The rest is mostly a Bulgarian kit with a tapco trigger and magpul grip. You can get Arsenals as they have different model #s. But still the 7.62x39 is banned. I'm not sure why but the 7.62x39 must be extra more copier cat of the AK than the other calibers of 'military' AK rifles. (The OG of the AK world)

The Maryland Law doesn't always make sense because a lot is based off of the original regulated firearms list and then as time went on additional clarifications were made. New firearms were made too, that didn't get banned so its all confusing depending on how you approach the research. Like you might wonder why certain guns are not now banned when very similar looking or similarly functioning.

You can contact the State Police and they will explain some things and point you to the COMAR for your own reading.

Hmmm, yeah, I'm not sure then. Something may have changed in the last two years since I first discussed that issue with Engage.

7.62x39mm is only banned because the law bans "AK-47s" by name, because it is based on Cali's banned list from the 1980s, which was created before AKs in 5.45 or 5.56 (i.e., AK-74 clones) were widely available in the U.S. That is also the same reason that the law doesn't ban newer weapons made since the 1990s - hence why we can own SCARs in MD, but not older FN weapons like the FAL or FNC. But I agree that it makes no sense on its face.

 

[brianns]

Hmmm, yeah, I'm not sure then. Something may have changed in the last two years since I first discussed that issue with Engage.

7.62x39mm is only banned because the law bans "AK-47s" by name, because it is based on Cali's banned list from the 1980s, which was created before AKs in 5.45 or 5.56 (i.e., AK-74 clones) were widely available in the U.S. That is also the same reason that the law doesn't ban newer weapons made since the 1990s - hence why we can own SCARs in MD, but not older FN weapons like the FAL or FNC. But I agree that it makes no sense on its face.

Did our regulated firearms list come from Cali? Would make sense because I always thought the regulators didn't do much research to gum up our rights to own various firearms. I do appreciate that clarifications were added that say "not enumerated or enumerated"

Regardless of where the list came from we just have to view it in terms of where it is today. I think it's too hard to look at some features and calibers of certain firearms and have it be able to predict other legalities of certain firearms.

 

[MattFinals718]

Did our regulated firearms list come from Cali? Would make sense because I always thought the regulators didn't do much research to gum up our rights to own various firearms. I do appreciate that clarifications were added that say "not enumerated or enumerated"

Regardless of where the list came from we just have to view it in terms of where it is today. I think it's too hard to look at some features and calibers of certain firearms and have it be able to predict other legalities of certain firearms.

Yes, my understanding is that the regulated list (now the banned list in FSA 2013) was a cut-and-paste job of Cali's list from the 1980s. Yes, MGA clearly didn't do any of their own research, but you know how legislative staffers tend to be: "It's not plagiarism; it's staff work!"

And yes, the list is arbitrary and convoluted to a point that it's essentially unenforceable. Whatever else we might think of MSP, they were definitely handed a sh*t sandwich by the MGA in trying to figure out how to enforce this BS law and understand what's banned vs. what's not.

 

[K31]

? Is there a max length for components to be considered a nunchuck assembly if made from a sausage? Or diameter?

< 24" for the "flexible material"

" (2) "Nunchaku" means a device constructed of two pieces of any substance, including wood, metal, or plastic, connected by any chain, rope, leather, or other flexible material not exceeding 24 inches in length."

 

[K31]

nice one.

I would be funny if it wasn't true:

" (2) "Nunchaku" means a device constructed of two pieces of any substance, including wood, metal, or plastic, connected by any chain, rope, leather, or other flexible material not exceeding 24 inches in length."

 

[brianns]

< 24" for the "flexible material"

" (2) "Nunchaku" means a device constructed of two pieces of any substance, including wood, metal, or plastic, connected by any chain, rope, leather, or other flexible material not exceeding 24 inches in length."

What if it's >24", a regulated tent pole assembly?

 

[Combloc]

It's always amused me that people will play by the ever-changing rules of a rigged game when the people writing the rules ignore them as soon as the ink is dry.

Fortunately, I bought all of my evil banned rifles pre '94 when this state was still free. I mean it's just ridiculous. They say you can't buy a rifle just because it's marked "AK" but you're fine to buy an M249, an RPD, a VZ58, etc. You can't buy an SP89 but you can buy an SP5K. You can't buy an HK94 but you can buy a Zenith Z-5. Marlandistan is simply a joke.

Once you start acting like crazy is normal, you're crazy too.

 

[mac1_131]

Interesting. I've talked with them myself (two years ago, though), and I had understood that the interpretation of that language in the law was that any AK models actually made by Kalashnikov are banned (e.g., the KR101 would not be legal here, even though it is functionally identical to many other 5.56 AKs that can be sold cash-and-carry in MD). I didn't realize that MSP was interpreting the law as any AK-pattern rifle that has "AK" in its name is banned.

None of them are made by Kalishnakov. He was the designer.

It's exactly as he said, if it is a 7.62x39 AK then any name of rifle with the same operating system and caliber is banned as a copy (AKM, WASR, etc.)

If it is a different caliber but same operating system (i.e. 5.45x39) then if it has AK in its name, it's banned because the list says "AK in all forms". If it does not have AK in the name, it's OK (i.e. Polish Tantal, Bulgarian SLR). All those are AK-74's but are not banned because they are not 7.62x39 and don't have AK in the name.

It's as simple as that. Or as complicated as that.

As I've said many times here, MSP is not the boogeyman here. They at doing their best to implement laws written by incompetent legislators.

 

[Bob A]

This latest determination can almost surely be appealed if someone is willing to argue about it with them. The common sense read of FSA 2013 has been that only 7.62x39mm AK rifles are banned.

I suspect that PSA will not sell one of these in MD anyway, once it has been tainted by MD or MSP.

They still won't sell ammunition to Annapolis or MoCo despite the fact that the law their decision is based on has long been pre-empted by MD state law.

 

[MattFinals718]

None of them are made by Kalishnakov. He was the designer.

It's exactly as he said, if it is a 7.62x39 AK then any name of rifle with the same operating system and caliber is banned as a copy (AKM, WASR, etc.)

If it is a different caliber but same operating system (i.e. 5.45x39) then if it has AK in its name, it's banned because the list says "AK in all forms". If it does not have AK in the name, it's OK (i.e. Polish Tantal, Bulgarian SLR). All those are AK-74's but are not banned because they are not 7.62x39 and don't have AK in the name.

It's as simple as that. Or as complicated as that.

As I've said many times here, MSP is not the boogeyman here. They at doing their best to implement laws written by incompetent legislators.

Oh, I didn't mean guns made by Kalashnikov the man, I meant by Kalashnikov USA the company. If what you're telling me is that MSP is going after guns that have "AK" in the name only, does that mean that newer Kalashnikov USA-made guns in calibers other than 7.62x39mm are legal (e.g., the KR101, which I mentioned earlier)?

And yes, as I've already said, I understand that MSP is not the bogeyman. Their determinations on their web site suggest that they don't really understand the law, either, and also don't terribly care about enforcing it one way or the other.

 

[K31]

What if it's >24", a regulated tent pole assembly?

>24" flexible material != "nunchaku"

 

[mac1_131]

Oh, I didn't mean guns made by Kalashnikov the man, I meant by Kalashnikov USA the company. If what you're telling me is that MSP is going after guns that have "AK" in the name only, does that mean that newer Kalashnikov USA-made guns in calibers other than 7.62x39mm are legal (e.g., the KR101, which I mentioned earlier)?

And yes, as I've already said, I understand that MSP is not the bogeyman. Their determinations on their web site suggest that they don't really understand the law, either, and also don't terribly care about enforcing it one way or the other.

I would say probably, yes. Two ways to find out. See if an FFL will sell you one, or ask MSP for an official determination. But as you say the name may hurt things since Avtomat Kalishnakov is on the list too, whatever that is. Even though an identical rifle from some other company is fine.

 

[JKrew]

I am not a lawyer, but from what I've seen the MSP list is more of a guide, sometimes helpful, sometimes not, but it is not actually law.

For example, there is a specific firearm listed as banned by name and model that I may or may not have purchased from a reputable MD dealer. When physically measured and considering the "features" it has, this firearm is definitely not banned by the actual MD law.

 

[MattFinals718]

I am not a lawyer, but from what I've seen the MSP list is more of a guide, sometimes helpful, sometimes not, but it is not actually law.

For example, there is a specific firearm listed as banned by name and model that I may or may not have purchased from a reputable MD dealer. When physically measured and considering the "features" it has, this firearm is definitely not banned by the actual MD law.

Oh, no doubt - the list is not legally binding for anything except the weapons listed by name in the law. Anything else is an opinion or "guidance," not law. There are countless examples of MSP getting determinations wrong, being shown new evidence during an appeal, and then changing their minds about the legality of certain firearms under FSA 2013. The H&K MR556, as I pointed out earlier, is a classic example. There are also plenty of "copycat" models that are banned in their factory config, and listed as such on MSP's web site, but can be easily made MD-compliant.