Most Versatile Powder for TEOTWAWKI

[Pinecone]

Not exactly:

Hornady 8th has .357 data for the 158 gr. It lists both IMR and Hodgdon.

IMR 4227
start 12.4=1000 fps..................max 14.5=1150 fps

H4227
start 11.9=1000 fps..................max 15.1=1200 fps

This data is applicable to the 158 gr HP and FP XTP.

Not the same powder, but you can load more H4227, so a load that is safe with IMR 4227, should be safe with H4227.

 

[Blacksmith101]

Not exactly:



Not the same powder, but you can load more H4227, so a load that is safe with IMR 4227, should be safe with H4227.

H4227 is no longer listed as an available powder on Hodgdon's web site.
IMR 4227 is still listed as available.

 

[Blacksmith101]

Here is the list of all the cartridges listed with one or more recipes using IMR 4227 powder. There are 43 Rifle, 9 Handgun, 2 T/C Contender, and 2 Shotgun a very versatile powder..

List of Cartridges with IMR 4227 Recipes

From the (10/90) edition of Handloader’s Guide For Smokeless Powders.
These have one or more recipes listed using IMR 4227 powder.

Rifle
.17 Remington
.22 Hornet
.220 Swift
.222 Remington
.222 Remington Magnum
.22-250 Remington
.223 Remington
.243 Winchester
.244 Remington
6 MM Remington
.250 Savage
.25-06 Remington
.257 Roberts
6.5 MM Remington Magnum
.264 Winchester Magnum
.270 Winchester
6.8 MM SPC
7 X 57 MM Mauser
7 MM Express Remington
.280 Remington
7 MM-08 Remington
.284 Winchester
7 MM Remington Magnum
.30 M1 Carbine
.30-30 Winchester
.300 Savage
.308 Winchester
.30-40 Krag
.30-06
.300 H&H Magnum
.300 Winchester Magnum
8 X 57 MM Mauser
8 MM Remington Magnum
.338 Winchester Magnum
.357 Magnum (Rifle)
.35 Remington
.350 Remington Magnum
.358 Winchester
.375 H&H Magnum
.44 Remington Magnum (Rifle)
.444 Marlin
.45-70 Government
.458 Winchester Magnum

Handgun
.22 Remington Jet CF Magnum
.221 Remington Fireball
.357 Magnum
.38 Special
.41 Remington Magnum
.44 S&W Special
.44 Remington Magnum
.45 Colt
9 MM Luger

T/C Contender
.30 Herrett
.357 Herrett

Shotgun
20 Gauge Field 3”
.410 Bore Field

 

[DaemonAssassin]

Subscribed...on the verge of becoming an apprentice reloader.

Thanks

When are you coming back for a lesson?

 

[jimbobborg]

In a true TEOTWAWKI, I'd pick black powder. It's been used in everything from .22 rimfire to the big bore elephant guns. Which reminds me, I need to get a Quigley rifle at some point.

 

[Blacksmith101]

In a true TEOTWAWKI, I'd pick black powder. It's been used in everything from .22 rimfire to the big bore elephant guns. Which reminds me, I need to get a Quigley rifle at some point.

I consider the holy Black to be the ultimate fall back position because in a real pinch you can make it yourself. I am now giving cartridges that were originally Black Powder loaded extra emphasis in my consideration, things like .45 Colt, .44-40, and .45-70. And the ultimate fall back gun is no doubt the Flint Lock because no primer needed.

The Quigley rifle used paper patched bullets which is another forgotten art more people should learn about. They shot extremely well but were unsuited to mass production however for low volume hand made rounds they offer some distinct advantages.

 

[Pinecone]

IMR is now owned by Hodgdon and Hogdgdon is ceasing production of IMR 4227 powder but will continue to sell powder Labeled as IMR 4227; they are ceasing sales of Hodgdon H4227 Labeled powder but they will be continuing production of H4227 and will be selling it under the IMR 4227 label.

In other words IMR 4227 is the same as H4227 and the powder will be sold in IMR 4227 labeled containers.

Confusing isn't it?

Do you have a link to where Hodgdon is saying this?

From ADI, who actually MAKES H4227:

Earlier this year, ADI (Thales) in Australia advised the following;
"With regard to reloading using ADI Sporting powders. Please find an equivalence table for ADI and Hogdon propellants.

These propellants are identical.
It should be noted that while IMR is part of Hodgdon, IMR and Hodgdon powders are not necessarily the same powder.
So H4227 is the identical powder to AR2205, but IMR4227 cannot be assumed to be identical.

Extreme caution should be taken and loads should be worked up accordingly. Refer to our website at www.adi-powders.com.au or our 5th edition handloaders’ guide for more information, warnings and reloading safety."


ADI Powder - Hodgdon

Trail Boss - Trail Boss
AS30N - Clays
AS50N - International
AP70N - Universal
AR2205 - H4227
AR2207 - H4198
AR2219 - H322
BM2 - Benchmark
AR2206H - H4895
AR2208 - Varget
AR2209 - H4350
AR2213H / AR2213SC - H4831 / H4831SC
AR2217 - H1000
AR2225 - Retumbo
AR2218 - H50BMG

 

[Magnumite]

Nice.

 

[Blacksmith101]

Do you have a link to where Hodgdon is saying this?

From ADI, who actually MAKES H4227:

I guess the simple answer to this is Hodgdon no longer lists H4227 as a product, I believe it was officially discontinued a couple of years ago (2012 ?) so new supplies of H4227 will become unavailable. IMR 4227 now owned and made by Hodgdon is still being made and sold. So use H4227 data for H4227 powder until you run out and use IMR 4227 data for IMR 4227 powder that you can still get.

This thread is about IMR 4227 powder and it was mentioned in a post that IMR 4227 was discontinued which it has not. My post tried to clear up confusion about what happened as a result of the consolidation of the powder companies is just adding to the confusion so I will edit my comments.

Always Use Published Data From Reliable Sources For The Powder You Are Using

If you click the IMR4227 MSDS link on the IMR web site you get the ADI (Thales) data sheet:
http://www.imrpowder.com/msds.html

 

[Pinecone]

Interesting, Hodgdon loading data still lists both powers, but when looking at some cartridges, for NONE of them, do they list both powders.

It is just so crazy, to change one powder for another, when the two are not the same to start with. So there a people who will NOT know that current IMR 4227 is actually H4227.

Goes against with the entire concept of canister powders.

But the SDS is not definitive, as a number of powders are >=85% nitrocellulose and <10% di ntro toluene. A2215 has the same info as A2205

 

[Blacksmith101]

Interesting, Hodgdon loading data still lists both powers, but when looking at some cartridges, for NONE of them, do they list both powders.

It is just so crazy, to change one powder for another, when the two are not the same to start with. So there a people who will NOT know that current IMR 4227 is actually H4227.

Goes against with the entire concept of canister powders.

But the SDS is not definitive, as a number of powders are >=85% nitrocellulose and <10% di ntro toluene. A2215 has the same info as A2205

The MSDS is defiantly not definitive I thought you would be interested in who is making the powder. If you look at the one for all other single base powders 15 different powders have the same data sheet, they are made by General Dynamics Canada. I just checked the other MSDS sheets and "Du Pont" powders are now either made by Thales (Thales Australia Limited) or General Dynamics Canada.

People who have been using IMR 4227 with carefully worked up loads will now be wondering why their performance is not the same as it used to be. Their are a couple of other powders that are being "consolidated" also so it would be nice if Hodgdon would put out an official statement of just what the changes are so people would know which of their loads might need tweaking.

 

[Pinecone]

Their are a couple of other powders that are being "consolidated" also so it would be nice if Hodgdon would put out an official statement of just what the changes are so people would know which of their loads might need tweaking.

YA THINK?

Or if the only one they are keeping is H4227, then keep calling it H4227 and tell people work up their IMR 4227 laods again the H version.

 

[Blacksmith101]

YA THINK?

Or if the only one they are keeping is H4227, then keep calling it H4227 and tell people work up their IMR 4227 laods again the H version.

At least we know which one was selling the best.

 

[jimbobborg]

I consider the holy Black to be the ultimate fall back position because in a real pinch you can make it yourself. I am now giving cartridges that were originally Black Powder loaded extra emphasis in my consideration, things like .45 Colt, .44-40, and .45-70. And the ultimate fall back gun is no doubt the Flint Lock because no primer needed.

The Quigley rifle used paper patched bullets which is another forgotten art more people should learn about. They shot extremely well but were unsuited to mass production however for low volume hand made rounds they offer some distinct advantages.

I happen to have firearms in 45 Colt, 44-40, and 32-20. Which is why I mentioned the Quigley rifle. I don't have a true heavy hitter blackpowder cartridge. I'd like something with more powder capacity, so I'll be snagging, at some point, a Sharps replica in 45-110. It should be interesting

 

[Blacksmith101]

In keeping with the recent popularity of place holder threads and posts this is a place holder for updated information soon to come. I am gathering data and crunching numbers and have more work to do. But at the moment my previous post suggesting that IMR-4227 was the most versatile appears to be incorrect and although it is good it appears to be running in third place behind two other popular choices. I am in the process of comparing 12 common powders to see how many different cartridges there is published data for. This is not looking at every powder nor every source of reloading data but will be way ahead of anything I have found.

So stay tuned for further updates.

 

[Seabee]

H-335, Universal, WSF
or
Everything i have in stock.



As for weapons,
M-2 and MK-19
Keep the rest of the junk

 

[Blacksmith101]

Versatile Powder for TEOTWAWKI Update "E"

Here is the update on the most versatile powder research I am doing.

For those who have nothing but negatives to say and those who don't like the powders I picked or the methodology I am using.... If you don't like it feel free to go and do your own research and have your own thread.

For the rest of us I will explain what I did because this simple project has grown in size and complexity. I had thought I discovered a versatile powder which I reported on in earlier posts but I was curious if I could extend the applications with other sources of data. I started poking around with the original list of cartridges and started to expand things then noticed some other promising candidates. This lead me into creating a spreadsheet which continues to grow as I add data.

This update represents my current results. I ultimately decided to select several powders to compare and I picked 12 based on my experience and some research as to what other said were versatile as well as looking at some manuals to see which seemed to show up frequently. I listed the powders on the spread sheet and started with the list of cartridges shown in an earlier post. Then I went through a number of handbooks and looked at every recipe listed and if one of the powders I was tracking was listed under a cartridge I recorded that. Of course I found additional cartridges listed for some powders so I added those to the list of cartridges. The current list of cartridges has 144 Rifle cartridges and 53 Handgun cartridges for a total possible number of 197.

It is important to note I was only interested in if a powder was used for a particular cartridge I did not care if there was only one recipe listed or if there were ten listed. The question simply was is there published data for a particular powder in a specific cartridge. Other conventions I used were I limited the categories to Rifle Cartridges and Handgun Cartridges. Where a particular cartridge had specific loads listed for both rifles and pistols the .44 Remington Magnum for instance, then that cartridge is listed twice once in each category. Cartridges with specific +P loads listed, for example .38 Special and .38 Special+P, those are included as separate cartridges.

So far I have been through five published reloading manuals and the data presented is based on those manuals. Here is a list of the manuals:

A = Handloader’s Guide for Smokeless powders; IMR Powder Company; 1990
B = Hodgdon’s 2011 Annual Reloading Manual; Hodgdon Powder Co.; 2011
C = Lyman Ideal Handbook No. 40; The Lyman Gun Sight Corp.; 1955 (lot of cast loads)
D = Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 3rd Edition; Lyman Products Co.; copy write 1980, printed 2010
E = Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition; Lyman Products Co.; copy write 2010

So here are the current standings:

Powder / Rifle / Handgun / Total

231 / 2 / 26 / 28
2400 / 70 / 13 / 83
IMR 3031 / 97 / 8 / 105
IMR 4198 / 108 / 7 / 115
IMR 4227 / 85 / 20 / 105
IMR 4895 / 100 / 7 / 107
Bullseye / 3 / 31 / 34
Unique / 86 / 37 / 123
PB / 45 / 23 / 68
Red Dot / 45 / 20 / 65
Green Dot / 45 / 12 / 57
Blue Dot / 4 / 19 / 23

At this time Unique is the leader with a total of 123 out of a possible 197 cartridges listed. Actually there are even more cartridges in the hand books but because they did use any of the chosen powders they aren't included.

Now if you want to be even more versatile, if you chose one rifle powder and one pistol powder you could do IMR 4198 and Unique to cover a total of 125 rifle cartridges and 43 pistol cartridges for a total of 168 out of the 197.

It has been interesting doing this workup because it is pointing out a number of things. Among them the advantage of multiple handbooks because any single book contains a very limited number of the possible powders that could be used. Although some cartridge powder combinations are shown in all five of the books I researched many more are only shown in one or two books and no single book includes all the possibilities.

I hope to add to this study by including additional handbooks as I have time so keep watching for updates.

 

[DaemonAssassin]

Here is the update on the most versatile powder research I am doing.

For those who have nothing but negatives to say and those who don't like the powders I picked or the methodology I am using.... If you don't like it feel free to go and do your own research and have your own thread.

For the rest of us I will explain what I did because this simple project has grown in size and complexity. I had thought I discovered a versatile powder which I reported on in earlier posts but I was curious if I could extend the applications with other sources of data. I started poking around with the original list of cartridges and started to expand things then noticed some other promising candidates. This lead me into creating a spreadsheet which continues to grow as I add data.

This update represents my current results. I ultimately decided to select several powders to compare and I picked 12 based on my experience and some research as to what other said were versatile as well as looking at some manuals to see which seemed to show up frequently. I listed the powders on the spread sheet and started with the list of cartridges shown in an earlier post. Then I went through a number of handbooks and looked at every recipe listed and if one of the powders I was tracking was listed under a cartridge I recorded that. Of course I found additional cartridges listed for some powders so I added those to the list of cartridges. The current list of cartridges has 144 Rifle cartridges and 53 Handgun cartridges for a total possible number of 197.

It is important to note I was only interested in if a powder was used for a particular cartridge I did not care if there was only one recipe listed or if there were ten listed. The question simply was is there published data for a particular powder in a specific cartridge. Other conventions I used were I limited the categories to Rifle Cartridges and Handgun Cartridges. Where a particular cartridge had specific loads listed for both rifles and pistols the .44 Remington Magnum for instance, then that cartridge is listed twice once in each category. Cartridges with specific +P loads listed, for example .38 Special and .38 Special+P, those are included as separate cartridges.

So far I have been through five published reloading manuals and the data presented is based on those manuals. Here is a list of the manuals:

A = Handloader’s Guide for Smokeless powders; IMR Powder Company; 1990
B = Hodgdon’s 2011 Annual Reloading Manual; Hodgdon Powder Co.; 2011
C = Lyman Ideal Handbook No. 40; The Lyman Gun Sight Corp.; 1955 (lot of cast loads)
D = Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 3rd Edition; Lyman Products Co.; copy write 1980, printed 2010
E = Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition; Lyman Products Co.; copy write 2010

So here are the current standings:

Powder / Rifle / Handgun / Total

231 / 2 / 26 / 28
2400 / 70 / 13 / 83
IMR 3031 / 97 / 8 / 105
IMR 4198 / 108 / 7 / 115
IMR 4227 / 85 / 20 / 105
IMR 4895 / 100 / 7 / 107
Bullseye / 3 / 31 / 34
Unique / 86 / 37 / 123
PB / 45 / 23 / 68
Red Dot / 45 / 20 / 65
Green Dot / 45 / 12 / 57
Blue Dot / 4 / 19 / 23

At this time Unique is the leader with a total of 123 out of a possible 197 cartridges listed. Actually there are even more cartridges in the hand books but because they did use any of the chosen powders they aren't included.

Now if you want to be even more versatile, if you chose one rifle powder and one pistol powder you could do IMR 4198 and Unique to cover a total of 125 rifle cartridges and 43 pistol cartridges for a total of 168 out of the 197.

It has been interesting doing this workup because it is pointing out a number of things. Among them the advantage of multiple handbooks because any single book contains a very limited number of the possible powders that could be used. Although some cartridge powder combinations are shown in all five of the books I researched many more are only shown in one or two books and no single book includes all the possibilities.

I hope to add to this study by including additional handbooks as I have time so keep watching for updates.

Have you checked the bullet manufacturers load books? There might be some info in there that might add/subtract the total number of calibers for the specific powders you listed.

I'm not telling you to do it, I'm just a bit curious as to if that might change the numbers you have.

Other than that, nice write up! If you are able to do so, can you publish your final findings in a PDF for us to ogle and discuss further?

 

[Uncle Duke]

Yours is an interesting study to be sure.

If you really want to watch your research expand, try to secure access to as many older data sources as you can. That won't be easy, but it can sure get interesting. I would be really interested in hearing what old volumes are on the benches of some of the members on this board. Or the web for that matter. Those who have older volumes have pages of gold, and most who have them know it. Other times though, they're somebody's junk book on a flea market table, if they ever make it off a dusty shelf. One man's trash and another man's treasure comes to mind.

I'm a first generation reloader myself, but I'm guessing that there are a handful here whose father or uncle may have taught a present day member. Find the guy with 1970's or 1960's or earlier manuals on the bench, and you'll find a gold mine of information for your project. I wish I had those volumes. What I can tell you for sure though is that you'll see data in a number of older manuals that quite likely hasn't been published since.

Good luck, and I'll be following your updates!

 

[ironpony]

Great research Blacksmith!
This makes me wonder if there are loads that have been used but not published due to maybe too close to danger for the average publishing company, and therefore adding but not subtracting.
Again, kudos.