M4C stupidity

[tzoid]

I understand where some can get frustrated if someone knocks the weapon they spent their hard earned money on . Nobody wants to feel as if they could have spent a few hundred or in some cases more and got a tier 1 Carbine.

The comments in this thread by some conflict with what I have heard personally and read in this forum. We have a few resident MSF Industry expert types that totally agree with the m4c thread.

I'm not sure why the person at M4C felt the need to start the thread knowing that it would ruffle feathers but hell we all do that from time to time.

I say buy the best you can....The "Chart" is very useful to assist in making an informed decision. If you don't care what others think and what you can afford is good enough then so be it but don't be so thin skinned and shoot what ya got.

Remember everyone has an opinion and people that register on Gun Forums usually have something to say.....some more than others.

 

[smokey]

I understand where some can get frustrated if someone knocks the weapon they spent their hard earned money on . Nobody wants to feel as if they could have spent a few hundred or in some cases more and got a tier 1 Carbine.

The comments in this thread by some conflict with what I have heard personally and read in this forum. We have a few resident MSF Industry expert types that totally agree with the m4c thread.

I'm not sure why the person at M4C felt the need to start the thread knowing that it would ruffle feathers but hell we all do that from time to time.

I say buy the best you can....The "Chart" is very useful to assist in making an informed decision. If you don't care what others think and what you can afford is good enough then so be it but don't be so thin skinned and shoot what ya got.

Remember everyone has an opinion and people that register on Gun Forums usually have something to say.....some more than others.

that was your 666'th post

 

[md_rick_o]

Lots of individuals are cheap and may never know good products because they see them as a waste.

Im not a gear snob, I always suggest the best parts for the price, or a "value point" of sorts. Some high end parts are needed to get good results, but not always.

I prefer to use the best I can get for my money, being a smith I dont like to run super cheap components because I see why certain parts are cheap.

These things bother me on cheaper AR parts:

Out of Spec Mag wells
Upper/Lower slop or play
Roughly Machined Uppers
Notched Hammers
Unshrouded Bolt Carriers
Improperly Staked Parts
Set Screw or Clamp on Gas Blocks/FSB's
2 Piece Rail Systems
Poory Cast FCG parts
1/9 Twist
Non M4 Ramps
Cheap Buffers
Rough BCG's


You dont have to buy Tier 1 parts to get a good AR, but budget shopping is never smart on AR builds. There is a balance to find.

Chad whenever you post like this i find myself doing more research to see what it is you're talking about and if i have that problem. THANKS A LOT.

 

[Markp]

The bottom line is, they're right...my tactical innovations/del-ton build isn't a colt and never will be. If my life depended on it, i'd agree with what they say...but it doesn't and paying what i can afford to build a satisfactory AR is fine with me for now. I don't claim my rifle is better than or equal to a colt...only that it fits my needs for a bearable price. there's too much crybabyin going on pretty much everywhere nowadays.

That's funny, 4 shot groups don't matter, get a 10 shot group... LMAO!

It's funny because I've shot multiday appleseed events with my "crappy" Delton upper and it worked just fine. I probably put 500 rounds through it in a weekend easy.

Mark

 

[rpker]

Lots of individuals are cheap and may never know good products because they see them as a waste.

Im not a gear snob, I always suggest the best parts for the price, or a "value point" of sorts. Some high end parts are needed to get good results, but not always.

I prefer to use the best I can get for my money, being a smith I dont like to run super cheap components because I see why certain parts are cheap.

These things bother me on cheaper AR parts:

Out of Spec Mag wells
Upper/Lower slop or play
Roughly Machined Uppers
Notched Hammers
Unshrouded Bolt Carriers
Improperly Staked Parts
Set Screw or Clamp on Gas Blocks/FSB's
2 Piece Rail Systems
Poory Cast FCG parts
1/9 Twist
Non M4 Ramps
Cheap Buffers
Rough BCG's


You don't have to buy Tier 1 parts to get a good AR, but budget shopping is never smart on AR builds. There is a balance to find.

While I agree you should not buy cheap parts if you are doing an AR build That does not mean you can't buy good parts on a budget. As an example I just bought a spike's tactical stripped upper that is sold as a "cosmetic blemish" for $60.00 which is about half what their regular stripped upper goes for. What's the blemish you ask? The only thing I can see is there is an almost microscopic nick in the anodized coating at the end of the threading for the barrel nut. It doesn't have any marking on it but other than that it is perfect. So if you a willing to take your time you can find good deals on good parts. But according to the guys at M4C my opinion won't count because Spikes is cheap, non mil-spec junk

 

[jaredm1]

Does anyone know the history on why they don't discuss Spikes? I mean, it's not even mentioned on their chart (unless it's been updated). From what I've seen, Spikes always lists their stuff as Mil-Spec or better.

 

[STSCM]

Hey Dude, 4 round groups don't count, don't ya know? I think 100 rd groups in full auto are the only ones that count, unless it's from a 'cheaper' brand, then 1000 rd groups, maybe. Mediocre grouping, right.
I think you should always buy the best you can afford. I think everyone should stay away from Remington 700's and only buy X40's. If you've got anything other than an X4 with a bull barrel, 26" only, and 5R rifling, don't bother posting, you're an idiot. Right. But that's their attitude.
Go get em, this is a beautiful thing.

 

[JeepDriver]

The ignorance in both threads is pathetic.

 

[Darkemp]

There is no perfect. Only what works best for a given situation. I'll take the accuracy, durability and mobility of the Ar any day.

+1. Sure it's a smaller round than a .308, but Russ hit the nail on the head with accuracy, durability, mobility. I'll add to that capacity, and the fact that you can carry many more rounds of 5.56 vs. 7.62x51 for the same weight penalty.

Talk to any guy who's been truly "in the field", they didn't need much else in their ruck other than plenty of ammo and happily went up to a week or more without eating as long as they never ran out of rounds.

 

[Kevp]

I could care less what you buy, but I will give honest answers and advice when someone is asking. It will be from the standpoint of this rifle may one day be needed to defend your life. I will also speak up when bad poop is being put out. There is a lot of bad poop in this thread. BTW- M16s/M4s/ARs are not battle rifles, they are assault rifles...there is a difference and it is caliber. The Germans developed the first assault rifle, the STG 44, because they saw the value. Had they gotten more in the field and earlier things may have been different. Finally, all these rifles are military rifles regardless of what you are using it for...if you don't like that in the discussion, buy something else for punching paper. For the guy that said the M240 and all other equipment is crap, you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Mega]

Does anyone know the history on why they don't discuss Spikes? I mean, it's not even mentioned on their chart (unless it's been updated). From what I've seen, Spikes always lists their stuff as Mil-Spec or better.

Apparently, the admins saw an uptick in threads started by people asking about Spikes products, discussing Spikes products, and displaying rifles completed with Spikes products.
As you have already observed, Spikes isn't among the brands that they feel are worthy. In fact, Spikes rifles don't even get a mention on 'the chart'.

It was alleged that employees of Spikes and their friends were starting the threads to promote their products.
But... as far as I know, the allegations were never substantiated.

So, at one point, the admins gathered all of the Spikes threads together and blended them all into one.
That thread was then put somewhere on the board, but when I went looking for it, I did not find it.

I don't own any Spikes products, but I also don't diss anyones choice of brand or roll mark.
I think everyone should buy the product(s) of their choice, even if it isn't listed on the left side of the chart.

 

[JeepDriver]

FWIW, the chart is old, it has not been up dated in a long time.

There is another chart coming out in the future which will have many more brands on it.

The chart was never met to be taken the way most do, it was built as a tool to help people make an informed decision.

 

[Markp]

+1. Sure it's a smaller round than a .308, but Russ hit the nail on the head with accuracy, durability, mobility. I'll add to that capacity, and the fact that you can carry many more rounds of 5.56 vs. 7.62x51 for the same weight penalty.

Talk to any guy who's been truly "in the field", they didn't need much else in their ruck other than plenty of ammo and happily went up to a week or more without eating as long as they never ran out of rounds.

Granted you can carry 200 rounds of 5.56 for every 100 rounds of 7.62, but when you get right down to it... There are advantages that the 7.62 rounds have that cannot be denied.

1. Superior knock down power. The 7.62 has double the power at any range of the 5.56, it will stop the enemy with one hit.

2. Ability to penetrate cover, M855 5.56 can penetrate 3mm of steel at 300 meters, meanwhile M80 ball will penetrate that same 3mm of steel another 200 meters out, all the way to 500 meters.

3. Distance, the 5.56 is a great little round, but the 7.62 offers a greater range and is probably less sensitive to environmental factors (wind and humidity) due to it's greater weight.

I'm not an "experienced" soldier, but these 3 things seem to be pretty clear advantages for the soldier "lucky" enough to have the heavier weapon.

Mark

 

[Darkemp]

Granted you can carry 200 rounds of 5.56 for every 100 rounds of 7.62, but when you get right down to it... There are advantages that the 7.62 rounds have that cannot be denied.

1. Superior knock down power. The 7.62 has double the power at any range of the 5.56, it will stop the enemy with one hit.

2. Ability to penetrate cover, M855 5.56 can penetrate 3mm of steel at 300 meters, meanwhile M80 ball will penetrate that same 3mm of steel another 200 meters out, all the way to 500 meters.

3. Distance, the 5.56 is a great little round, but the 7.62 offers a greater range and is probably less sensitive to environmental factors (wind and humidity) due to it's greater weight.

I'm not an "experienced" soldier, but these 3 things seem to be pretty clear advantages for the soldier "lucky" enough to have the heavier weapon.

Mark

It's an age old debate. Don't get me wrong, I like the 7.62 just fine and if capacity or rate of fire weren't a consideration I would choose it every day and twice on Sunday. But the reality was for the US that the 7.62 in the M14 platform produced a heavy recoil and was not as controllable as the 5.56 for the average soldier. Experienced marksmen have often gravitated back to the 7.62 which explains why the old M14's are still in service today with modern upgrades.

Personally I'd rather not take a shot from either, both are at least equally lethal with a well placed shot. The 7.62 just dumps more energy into the hit and thus a one shot knock down. A 5.56 shot just means the enemy may require a double tap. Anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice too.

 

[STSCM]

Granted you can carry 200 rounds of 5.56 for every 100 rounds of 7.62, but when you get right down to it... There are advantages that the 7.62 rounds have that cannot be denied.

1. Superior knock down power. The 7.62 has double the power at any range of the 5.56, it will stop the enemy with one hit.

2. Ability to penetrate cover, M855 5.56 can penetrate 3mm of steel at 300 meters, meanwhile M80 ball will penetrate that same 3mm of steel another 200 meters out, all the way to 500 meters.

3. Distance, the 5.56 is a great little round, but the 7.62 offers a greater range and is probably less sensitive to environmental factors (wind and humidity) due to it's greater weight.

I'm not an "experienced" soldier, but these 3 things seem to be pretty clear advantages for the soldier "lucky" enough to have the heavier weapon.

Mark

Hey Mark,
Just read a book on our Iraqi kids (ok, Marines) doing the sniper bit, they hit one bad guy with the M40 and as they were leaving their hide, had to hit another bad guy with the M4. They were using ammo sent from one of the kids family and it was like 63 or 66 gr. ammo. The doc at the station looked at both bodies and thought they'd both been hit by a 308. (Okay, 7.62, I digress). Bottom line is in a shorter range scenario the 5.56 with proper feeding can do equivalent damage. Ergo, my go to pig shooter. (I must be a PETAPOS)

 

[smokey]

Hey Mark,
Just read a book on our Iraqi kids (ok, Marines) doing the sniper bit, they hit one bad guy with the M40 and as they were leaving their hide, had to hit another bad guy with the M4. They were using ammo sent from one of the kids family and it was like 63 or 66 gr. ammo. The doc at the station looked at both bodies and thought they'd both been hit by a 308. (Okay, 7.62, I digress). Bottom line is in a shorter range scenario the 5.56 with proper feeding can do equivalent damage. Ergo, my go to pig shooter. (I must be a PETAPOS)

reminds me of that "sniper: in the crosshairs" documentary they aired a while back. Ethan Place(sniper guy extraordinaire) mentioned that shooting insurgents close with the .308 had less effect than shooting them further back because the projectile was going so fast it just zipped through them before expanding. when the insurgents moved back, the kill rate was higher because the bullet expanded earlier and created more damage. thought it was interesting combined with this....
http://brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1696.htm
where the bullet really doesnt start tumbling till 8-10 inches in. makes ya think about what power means for terminal ballistics

 

[Darkemp]

reminds me of that "sniper: in the crosshairs" documentary they aired a while back. Ethan Place(sniper guy extraordinaire) mentioned that shooting insurgents close with the .308 had less effect than shooting them further back because the projectile was going so fast it just zipped through them before expanding. when the insurgents moved back, the kill rate was higher because the bullet expanded earlier and created more damage. thought it was interesting combined with this....
http://brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1696.htm
where the bullet really doesnt start tumbling till 8-10 inches in. makes ya think about what power means for terminal ballistics

This makes a good point. Remember the military is using FMJ loads, not HP or SP hunting loads which are designed to be much more devastating at a shorter distance.

 

[04RWon]

Oh yeah!?! Well in the movie shooter marky mark killed people with a .22 rifle

 

[STSCM]

Oh yeah!?! Well in the movie shooter marky mark killed people with a .22 rifle

An assassins favorite round. From like 6".

 

[smokey]

An assassins favorite round. From like 6".