M4 and Saiga 12

[RaVis]

I checked both of these out at a local gun store the other day. Not in the market myself, but curious as to which one you'd choose?

The Benelli seems to have everything already there. The Saiga looks like she'd need a couple of hundred more to bring her up to par.

Anyway... this ought to be fun.

Thanks.

 

[-Z/28-]

Benelli M4 everytime. With the sexy collapsible stock of course.

 

[Dospetz]

Benelli M4

I liked the Benelli M4, but I had to add a lot of accessories after the purchase to bring it to where I wanted. Only two of those accessories directly related to the operation, admittedly, the bolt handle and the buttstock.

 

[Kingjamez]

It really all comes down to whether you want to use detachable magazines.

-Jim

 

[StantonCree]

No contest Benelli

 

[mopar92]

For combat or other martial use Benelli every day of the week. For fun and competition Saiga. Something just seems right about a semi-auto shotgun with DBMs.

 

[wailer]

For combat or other martial use Benelli every day of the week. For fun and competition Saiga. Something just seems right about a semi-auto shotgun with DBMs.

Never shot a Benelli M4 but have I have a Saiga 12, but I'm curious why you could not put that extra $1000-1100 to build the Saiga 12 to a combat ready shotgun and for even less than than a $1000 spent, when many builder are out there who can fine tune it to run smoothly with heavy and light loads, after all it's a neutered military firearm. Just curious no argument here.

 

[mopar92]

Never shot a Benelli M4 but have I have a Saiga 12, but I'm curious why you could not put that extra $1000-1100 to build the Saiga 12 to a combat ready shotgun and for even less than than a $1000 spent, when many builder are out there who can fine tune it to run smoothly with heavy and light loads, after all it's a neutered military firearm. Just curious no argument here.

Benelli M4 is issued by the USMC. Combat proven and tested. And the lowest I've seen Saigas for is 550 so 550 plus 1000 is 1550 for that price comparison the Benelli is the better value. Not to mention the Saiga 12 will be a custom build. Custom build means custom parts to replace. Equals more expensive. So the Benelli wins. Saigas are awesome though.

And no I'm not a Benelli fanboy. I trust mine and my families life to a Mossberg pump.

 

[wailer]

Benelli M4 is issued by the USMC. Combat proven and tested. And the lowest I've seen Saigas for is 550 so 550 plus 1000 is 1550 for that price comparison the Benelli is the better value. Not to mention the Saiga 12 will be a custom build. Custom build means custom parts to replace. Equals more expensive. So the Benelli wins. Saigas are awesome though.

And no I'm not a Benelli fanboy. I trust mine and my families life to a Mossberg pump.

Yea but from what I understood Benelli M4 does not cycle low brass well thats why the military keeps the Mossberg 500/590 around still again, this is from what I read, but not to take anything from Benelli's I just think for $500 and know how plus some basic parts you can get a Saiga running nicely for about $800 total or so just my opinion.

 

[1time]

Saiga and a trip to Tromix for the S17 package. The saiga is a Military weapon as well and 20 round drum mags are awesome.

 

[h2u]

Saiga and a trip to Tromix for the S17 package. The saiga is a Military weapon as well and 20 round drum mags are awesome.

Yes. It will work well, but even with some common upgrades to the package, you're talking about a $2500+ SBS once you factor in the stamp and transfers.
That's a "wee bit" over the price of the Benelli

 

[erwos]

20rd drums are completely useless for serious work - way, way too heavy and hard to reload with. If I ever bought another S12, it'd have a magwell on it, drum compatibility be damned. (Although I just saw that Jack Travers apparently has a new design that will take drums, so maybe I'll be putting it on my existing gun!)

That said, a reliable S12 is a work of art, especially when you use recoil-reduction stocks/tubes. There is a reason that the Russians use them versus other options...

 

[wilcam47]

20rd drums are completely useless for serious work - way, way too heavy and hard to reload with. If I ever bought another S12, it'd have a magwell on it, drum compatibility be damned.

That said, a reliable S12 is a work of art, especially when you use recoil-reduction stocks/tubes. There is a reason that the Russians use them versus other options...

the drums are badass!

 

[erwos]

the drums are badass!

*shrugs* I've got one, and I'm just relating my experience. They make an already-too-heavy gun even more heavy. They are not just not that comfortable to use, especially compared to magazines. Double-stack magazines are where it's going to be, once someone finally comes out with a working production model.

They LOOK awesome, it's true. And if your objective in life is to dump 20rds of birdshot as fast as you can, sure, they can do that nicely... but, again, for serious work, magazines would be my choice, especially the shorter 8rd ones.

 

[wailer]

*shrugs* I've got one, and I'm just relating my experience. They make an already-too-heavy gun even more heavy. They are not just not that comfortable to use, especially compared to magazines. Double-stack magazines are where it's going to be, once someone finally comes out with a working production model.

They LOOK awesome, it's true. And if your objective in life is to dump 20rds of birdshot as fast as you can, sure, they can do that nicely... but, again, for serious work, magazines would be my choice, especially the shorter 8rd ones.

Whats your thoughts on the 12rd promag drums?

 

[erwos]

Whats your thoughts on the 12rd promag drums?

Haven't used them. On paper, they would seem to be a somewhat more viable choice - smaller, and lighter when loaded to capacity. I think some people miss the fact that the drums themselves weigh rather a lot - the MD Arms drum is 2 pounds empty. Even on a heavy gun like the Saiga 12, you notice that quickly. So, like I was saying, great for lolz, brutal for actually trying to use in a real life situation.

 

[rob-cubed]

I agree, had an MD-20, sold it. Way too bulky and heavy. And anything more than an 8-round single stack mag is equally unwieldy. I like the idea of a 12 round drum and while they get decent reviews, I'd rather wait for a double-stack that isn't made by Promag.

I'm itching to shoot a Benelli but between a pump Mossberg and S-12 they already do everything I expect.

 

[mopar92]

Pump Mossberg FTW

 

[Onua]

I like both the Saiga and the M4, I did find a company called Elite Tactical advantage that makes a shotgun they call the Devastator which is based on the 11-87 or 1100. around $2k

 

[mudskipper]

Benelli M4 is issued by the USMC. Combat proven and tested. And the lowest I've seen Saigas for is 550 so 550 plus 1000 is 1550 for that price comparison the Benelli is the better value. Not to mention the Saiga 12 will be a custom build. Custom build means custom parts to replace. Equals more expensive. So the Benelli wins. Saigas are awesome though.

And no I'm not a Benelli fanboy. I trust mine and my families life to a Mossberg pump.

Saigas (real Saigas, not the neutered ones we get in "sporting" configuration here) are issued to Russian Spetnatz units. They are most definetly combat-proven too, probably to a much greater extent than the M-4, as I'm sure lots of dead Georgians and Chechens can atest too.

The shotgun is, up until the Saiga, a 19th century firearm. The Russians took it and dragged it kicking and screaming a hundred years into the future, that's all. There's no reason a modern semiauto shotgun shouldn't have detachable magazines, excpet for the fact that nearly all of them are still based on fowling peices from the late 1890's. Well, the Saiga is not based on a antiquated Fudd gun, as the Benelli (and almost all other shotguns) is.

For the money, even with the "post-importation-ban-scare" prices now, there is no better value on earth than a modified Saiga 12, and no other shotgun that will do what the Saiga can, at any price.

As far as "custom" parts in the Saiga.... Well, Benelli M-4's aren't exactly filled with easily-found-off-the-shelf-at-any-gunstore parts either. And in terms of sheer numbers of parts, the Benelli is far more complicated, too. The most complicated part on a Siaga is the bolt, and that's not saying much! Most of the firing issues with Saiga all seem to stem from gas port size, and once that is corrected, it will fire anything.

I had a Remington 1100 Tactical until I got my first Saiga. For $400 less, BTW. I traded the Remington a few months later for my next two Saigas.