M-4: Is this rifle costing American Lives?

[ripper157]

Is this thread over yet? Or do people who have NO idea what they are talking about still want to speculate?

+1

 

[smores]

Pat has another 6920 that sheared a bolt lug at 16,000ish and after the bolt was replaced - again no cleaning other than lube - the gun is now 22,000ish with no issues.

I'm not cleaning my piston gun either for awhile to see where that goes.

I find it really interesting that you guys are actually turning to WBAL for facts.

Which lug sheared off? Was it the one opposite the extractor? I heard in a lecture that some high-use M16s/M4s have had that issue. I believe LMT makes a hard-chrome bolt that doesn't even have that lug (only 6 functional lugs since the "nub" on the extractor doesn't really do much of anything).

 

[Rattlesnake46319]

Can we move on to something else? Like 9mm vs. .40S&W vs. .45ACP? How about that exercise in futility?

Tell y'all what. We'll do an endurance/accuracy test at the next Shoot. Choose your firearm and method of maintenance and I'll go from position to position dumping sand into your actions. Will that finish this pissing contest?

The M16/M4 is what we have, it's been the standard for 40 years for a reason. Could we have better? Maybe. But until someone has a solid solution that has been proven, could we move on to something more productive? Like putting our energy in keeping our f*%&in' rights?

I've seen what Kevp has to say. He's like E Shell, doesn't chime in much, but when he does, it's worth listening to.

 

[240 towles]

You are seriously making me question your experience and knowledge level with these statements. BTW- there are piles of dead "paper skinned" bad guys out there that have been killed by the "sucky round".

I am not saying that the M4 does not kill people. What I am saying is that a rifle that is designed not to jam do to loose tolerances and a piston action, is better than a rifle with tight tolerances that qoute "shits where it eats". M4s and M16s are notorious for jamming due to carbon fouling. The more you shoot it, the more it wants to jam. There is no adjustable gas rate or piston [ like sig's 556 rifle] Look at the rifles that still appear in war torn areas of africa. Rifles that have been in pretty much constant battle for decades. Examples would be: the AK, the G3, and the FAL.
The US military likes guns that cater to all types, little people, big people, men and women. The 5.56 round is very befitting for this. This is why the army loves the SAW so much, even though the M60 was superior, though much heavier much like the 240 which is way supierior. This policy is a growing problem.

My problem with the 5.56 round is that it ricochets to easily and does not hit hard enough. A SAW gunner firing down a killzone with many angles and hard walls [such as an alley in a CQB scenario] results in a hell of alot of splash-over. This can be a problem if you have several teams working in a confined urban area. Also, though the 5.56 round can be devastating in a center mass hit, a hit in a non-vital area will not result in as critical a hit as a 7.62 Nato round hit. 5.56 is very fast, but small. This is good for center mass hits as the bullet tumbles and bounces through the chest cavity. The 7.62 round is slower, but it is bigger and tends to pull alot of meat out with it leaving a much bigger exit wound. An enemy can apply pressure and still be in the fight on a non-vital hit from 5.56. A non-vital hit from a 7.62 round tends to have a bigger permanant cavity and therefor will not only bleed more, but will probably need packing to control blood loss due to the amount of tissue pulled out the exit hole. I know a vital hit is always what you aim for, but a downed enemy is a downed enemy.

The diffrences in the wound ballistics can be effected by ammo type, such a soft points or frangible ammo which would increase the M4's lethality, BUT... these rounds are illegal on the battlefield and the US abides by the "rules of war"

Please note that I am not saying that the AR platform is worthless, as it is not, but what I am trying to stress is that more reliable, heavier hitting, rifles exist out there that are better suited for long term combat units.

 

[3rdRcn]

I am sensing a bit of elitism here.

Lots of retards too though.

I hope that isn't the way it's coming across racinghoss, I am no better than any of my other brothers in arms or veterans and will never claim to be. I do know that I can shoot the AR platform better than most of the folks I have seen shoot one and I have extensive experience both in a combat situation and out with this platform. I have experience with the M16A1, M16A2, CAR15 and M4, I have put more rounds through these guns than most of the guys bashing it have minutes on this earth and that was before they were born. Please excuse me if I sounded like an elitist as that is not nor was not my intention.

As Kevp has said, the problems experienced by the folks in the firefight in the article smells of bad fire discipline and bad maintenance. I can not share what some of the other folks that were referred to do for a living nor what they have done in the past but take it from a brother jarhead and listen to what they have to say because they far surpass my level of expertise.

 

[WSM]

i should probably stay out of this one but....

Most the videos I have watched of shows our forces unloading incredible amounts of fire on an empty position. Now, that doesn't take into account video editing but old school military attitude was you don't fire your weapon unless you're going to hit something. The only exemptions were cover fire and fire for effect. I just discussed this the other day with my uncle (CW3 Ret. Army) and he said the same thing. Like I said, from a computer chair its really hard to see targets in the desert at 400 yards. "Cpl. Jason Bogar fired approximately 600 rounds from his M-249 before the weapon overheated and jammed the weapon."...unless this was cover fire for movement or to demoralize the enemy, it should be 600 dead insurgents. Just my $.02...feel free to flame it all you want

 

[erwos]

More fuel for the fire:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/13/the-truth-behind-the-recent-m4-controversy/

 

[X-Factor]

i should probably stay out of this one but....

Most the videos I have watched of shows our forces unloading incredible amounts of fire on an empty position. Now, that doesn't take into account video editing but old school military attitude was you don't fire your weapon unless you're going to hit something. The only exemptions were cover fire and fire for effect. I just discussed this the other day with my uncle (CW3 Ret. Army) and he said the same thing. Like I said, from a computer chair its really hard to see targets in the desert at 400 yards. "Cpl. Jason Bogar fired approximately 600 rounds from his M-249 before the weapon overheated and jammed the weapon."...unless this was cover fire for movement or to demoralize the enemy, it should be 600 dead insurgents. Just my $.02...feel free to flame it all you want

The fog of war negates training unfortunately. The OP made me quite sad to hear about Americans getting overrun and simply stomped on because of inferior equipment. We need to get the **** out of Afghanistan....it's going to be worse than Iraq.

12mags in 30 minutes??? Damn. From MY computer chair it sounds like justified panic shooting. THAT scares me...that American troops know the meaning of fear on the battlefield that they should own without question. On the flip side, it's a good lesson, and perhaps the result will be better tactics and political decisions, as well as better gear and weapons.

Frankly, with regard to the current weapons platform, it's not suited to the tactics we're attempting. We're trying to go to a more gurilla style warfare (M4 suits that just fine) when the enemy is attempting to meet us head on...taxing the sometimes ancient weapons systems. We need to respond with total and complete overwhelming force, the kind that hasn't been seen since WW2, the kind that we SHOULD have been employing in Iraq (at least since 2004). When you do not know the battlefield and way of life like the back of your hand, you do not try small unit tactics and assimilation, you break the enemy's back, put a foot up his ass, and keep it there. THAT is why we lose, that is why we get pinned down and end up relying too heavily on overworked equipment and lose popularity politically. The super elite combat units (Recon, SEALS, etc) use stealth, which in small unit tactics is essential in enemy territory, and they use it well along with better gear. The regular ground pounders can't choose their method of attack and so scenarios like the OP happen. The underlying question in all this is whether or not you CAN flatten Afghanistan like we did on D-Day....

 

[racinghoss]

For a quick aside racinghoss, it's really not elitism. I've met Canuck, I was BS'ing with 3rdRcn today and 3rd tells me that Kevp is the real deal. This argument gets REALLY old around here. These guys have a lot of real world, real serious experience with this weapon. I think they just get frustrated having to explain the same stuff over and over again and arguing mostly with guys that have little to no real world experience.

Trust me when I tell you that at least 3rdRcn is one of the most down-to-Earth guys you'll ever meet. This isn't someone that advertises where he's been and what he's done and lives off of his laurels from the past. I can vouch that he's not an elitist, but he does indeed have some serious experience here. Heck, I don't like the M4 platform myself, but if these guys tell me it's a solid platform, I have to defer to experience that I just can't match.

It is not elitism in that regard. I totally understand what they are doing. It just has a "club" sort of feel to it.

I know that those guys have lots of experience with this and likely lots of other weapons. However, in the process of discounting the idiocy from armchair quarterbacks, they also seem to discount the experience of anyone other than themselves. There are lots of us that have used the M16 platform in "every climb and place". I have sent tens of thousands of rounds downrange at all sorts of targets and I have trained thousands of troops with the weapon, as well as other standard small arms in the arsenal.

My point is, dont so quickly discount the posts of others just because you are all that and a chicken sandwich... (granted, some really are idiots, lol).

 

[smokey]

<--------idiot don't learn if you don't question though

 

[WSM]

12mags in 30 minutes??? Damn.

That was my first reaction. It is probably a two fold problem. Wrong tactics in the given situation and the weapons platform itself. Guns will jam in ideal conditions much less being used for sustained fire.

 

[jaredm1]

I don't understand why some of you want to put this thread to rest...I guess you already know everything that Kevp, 3rd, canuck and others are posting?

I don't. I know very little. I'm in the middle of putting together my first rifle based on this platform and this thread has been a great read. I'm sure it's annoying to try to combat false rumors and opinions not based in fact over and over again, but reading around all of that and you get some good, interesting information. For someone with an open mind, trying to learn, I think it's a good discussion. Carry on

 

[WSM]

I don't understand why some of you want to put this thread to rest...I guess you already know everything that Kevp, 3rd, canuck and others are posting?

I don't. I know very little. I'm in the middle of putting together my first rifle based on this platform and this thread has been a great read. I'm sure it's annoying to try to combat false rumors and opinions not based in fact over and over again, but reading around all of that and you get some good, interesting information. For someone with an open mind, trying to learn, I think it's a good discussion. Carry on

Quoted For Truth

 

[smokey]

I posted that the gun runs cooler it will in the receiver area and runs cleaner in the receiver area and for over penetration I would think that the CAR-15 would be king having a short barrel and lower velocity we did not see that in the field. I have talked to many returning Marines that complained of over penetration with the longer barrel and faster twist as for fragmentation the full metal jacketed bullet by design is to yaw and flip fragmentation may happen if bone is hit but is not a design of the bullet the higher velocity will increase the hydrostatic shock and the temporary cavity that is basic ballistics the wounding potential of a full metal jacketed bullet is well documented unless you have something to add the professionals don't know

i've always read that the main way the 5.56 is effective is by tumbling then fracturing at the cannelure and dumping energy. the fragments have the ability to cause cuts and tears in the temporary cavity walls..making a bigger wound channel. this all happens with fmj ammo, as long as it's over about 3,000 fps. ..i mean, that's according to the professionals at least. i just read.

 

[WSM]

to all you nay sayers

 

[ripper157]

I think you are missing a key point. If you want to ask questions fine. I can tell you I have and those 3 guys are the ones who not only answered my questions but who I listened to. I assure you if you want to know something ask them and they will tell you. I assure you they have no elitism or whatever was said, they have always gone out of their way to help a fellow shooter. As for this thread....it should be over. You have three things happening in this thread:



1. A select few people that know what they are talking about defending the what they see things to a bunch of people that don't know what they are talking about (and a few vets that have personal experiences to draw their own conclusions from). Not explaining answers to questions asked but defending against stubborn views.



2. People getting sidetracked from the OP to cherry pick any part of something they said that has any validity to it so they can try to seem educated on the topic.



3. People getting offended to stuff that wasn't outright said, implied maybe but not said.



You want to learn something start a thread and ask. MD Shooters have some really knowledgeable people if you weed through some of the stuff.

I don't understand why some of you want to put this thread to rest...I guess you already know everything that Kevp, 3rd, canuck and others are posting?

I don't. I know very little. I'm in the middle of putting together my first rifle based on this platform and this thread has been a great read. I'm sure it's annoying to try to combat false rumors and opinions not based in fact over and over again, but reading around all of that and you get some good, interesting information. For someone with an open mind, trying to learn, I think it's a good discussion. Carry on

 

[jaredm1]

I think I'm more in a position where I don't have a specific question to ask or start a thread about, I'm just picking up knowledge by reading this.

When you go to a new class, you don't start off by asking all these questions...because you don't even know that much about what you're asking. You start off by listening to the lectures, researching/reading on your own, and then bring up points about that which you don't understand.

 

[canuck]

Hey Salty Dog,

I wasn't directing anything at your Dad, and caveated my statement as to let Vietnam vets in general that I meant no disrespect, but I am sticking by my statements because they are true. They may also have some truth today with problems being cited- there is a very good chance that Soldiers were exceeding the max cyclic rates for said weapon systems and it may have been for good reason, then again, it may have been due to a lack of fire discipline.

As for the rest of your post, I thought about "notifying your office", but it ain't worth it. I will say this- I am pretty sure that I am the only guy on this board that has used an HK416 and sat in the Gray Room at HK.

Kevp

Add me to the Gray room list. I spent a few hours in there and loved every minute of it. It was in sterling when I was getting my Armorers recert as the guest of the LE/MIL VP of Sales.

 

[canuck]

I think you are missing a key point. If you want to ask questions fine. I can tell you I have and those 3 guys are the ones who not only answered my questions but who I listened to. I assure you if you want to know something ask them and they will tell you. I assure you they have no elitism or whatever was said, they have always gone out of their way to help a fellow shooter. As for this thread....it should be over. You have three things happening in this thread:



1. A select few people that know what they are talking about defending the what they see things to a bunch of people that don't know what they are talking about (and a few vets that have personal experiences to draw their own conclusions from). Not explaining answers to questions asked but defending against stubborn views.



2. People getting sidetracked from the OP to cherry pick any part of something they said that has any validity to it so they can try to seem educated on the topic.



3. People getting offended to stuff that wasn't outright said, implied maybe but not said.



You want to learn something start a thread and ask. MD Shooters have some really knowledgeable people if you weed through some of the stuff.

Ripper

Thanks. We really do try to help.

 

[saltydog]

Hey Salty Dog,

I wasn't directing anything at your Dad, and caveated my statement as to let Vietnam vets in general that I meant no disrespect, but I am sticking by my statements because they are true. They may also have some truth today with problems being cited- there is a very good chance that Soldiers were exceeding the max cyclic rates for said weapon systems and it may have been for good reason, then again, it may have been due to a lack of fire discipline.

As for the rest of your post, I thought about "notifying your office", but it ain't worth it. I will say this- I am pretty sure that I am the only guy on this board that has used an HK416 and sat in the Gray Room at HK.

That notifying the office deal was a JOKE. Plus you'd have a real hard time reaching mine........I don't have one. It's really too bad no-one can figure out how any topic or response to any topic is brought about because these aren't actual face to face discussions. I would think if they were? No-one would get mad or upset at a typical conversation, because that's all it is. I think sometimes we get wrapped up in our own little world that we forget it's much bigger than any of us. There isn't any of us who knows it all, but it takes all of us together to understand and do something about it.

I pulled out information I had been reading about and stated what I saw or read about, nothing less. You can bash the message, but not the so called messanger. But what I was reading may have in your opinion been BS? But I didn't write any of it, I stated what I had read. Just like I had also just finished reading at the end of an article this morning in NRA's American Rifleman about the M4 and how the Army is considering commercial off the shelf (COTS) Carbines made by American Manufacturers as a possible future replacements for the M16 Family. Evaluation of (COTS) designs has been scheduled to begin this month with possible trials beginning in the summer of 2010 and a possible decision and production in 2012.

I know not how old some of the people involved in this discussion are? I do know when I was a youngster (many moons ago) I remember seeing the reports of the M16 failures and how they were terrible weapons on the Local News in the 60's. For me this just brought back memories of our Soldiers not having the best equipment in the field. We lived in a time where America was the BEST! How is it that we could send our people into Harms way without a tried and tested piece of equipment that they had for their own defense?

I am a "NOW" person. When I see and hear of these reports going out and read about the aftermath of some of our own being over-run because the people involved said their weapons failed them at the time of their greatest need. I want them to have the best equipment in the World NOW! I don't want them waiting for what they deserve. And if we don't have it for them NOW! Why not?

I do get frustrated as any of us do when we hear of things like this going on. But for some like myself this same ole same ole argument about this same platform wears us (mostly me) thin. It's like I heard this forty years ago. Why can't this be fixed?

And yes many years ago after Vietnam had come and gone there was a report out about how many bullets did it take per kill? It was awful number in the tens of thousands per enemy combatant. They did this comparison between WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. And lets just say Vietnam wasn't the greatest show of marksmanship.

Honestly that was a different time, plus the Draft was going hot and heavy. By the time a kid registered for the Draft, went through Basic and got to Nam, the avrage age of our Soldiers was 19. These 19 year old kids were scared to death, and when they got into a jam they kept pulling the trigger. But I really thought whom-ever came up with the slogan "Happy Trigger" used a very poor choice of words to define kids being scared.

My Dad was in his late 30's and early 40's by the time of his third deployment came and went. During that time he was in Country he did tell me of one attack where I honestly think would make you understand how a gun barrel could get so hot. But this is a gun forum, not a death forum.

But I've said more than enough about this subject. So I'm done. I have nothing to prove, and nothing more to say about this subject.

OH EXCEPT FOR THIS! GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS!