M-4: Is this rifle costing American Lives?

[Decoy]

Not sure what your experience is. By what you've posted so far, its not active duty, so I'm not sure how you can, with authority, say such a thing.
And yes, by instruction, there is a weapons log for every weapon. If I ever caught an armorer not keeping the log or gundecking it, I would have made it my business to bring him to CO's mast.

Glad to hear it, guess I was wrong.

 

[DeadIDik]

This story is a load of crap. Its nothing more than the media trying to use the same b.s. from vietnam to demoralize troops and people at home into pulling out. People better wake up and see history repeating itself except this time the propaganda machine is being run by master liars instead of amateurs like their parents were.

 

[aquaman]

we do make our own weapons...berettas are made here and m4's are made in conneticut and most everything else is made by fn in south carolina...i was referring to politicians in the south wanting to pull more business down to the south away from the manufacturing in the north

I did not know FN stuff was made here, the rest I was aware of. Bit off topic i apologize.

 

[...]

headquarters for advertising and such is in mclean, va...manufacturing is in columbia sc

ok so FN creates American jobs.

 

[...]

I did not know FN stuff was made here, the rest I was aware of. Bit off topic i apologize.

knowing the manufacturing and politics is not off topic. It is something to consider when trying to push a new rifle.

 

[...]

This story is a load of crap. Its nothing more than the media trying to use the same b.s. from vietnam to demoralize troops and people at home into pulling out. People better wake up and see history repeating itself except this time the propaganda machine is being run by master liars instead of amateurs like their parents were.

you maybe close to right. There were problems with small vehicle armor in Iraq, that was in the media, then they started beefing up the hummers and other things.

If the m4 did not fail in Iraq, then why is it failing other places?
If I recall, US Marines would ride up in on a city, have a fire fight and take the city. Apparently they were so accurate (making head shots at past 200yds) that people investigated the kills as executions. So the m4 works.

 

[Rattlesnake46319]

ok so FN creates American jobs.

FN is also licensed to manufacture the M-16. Tripped me out when I saw the stamping on the magazine well of my weapon in Basic at Fort Jackson and realized she was made down the street.

 

[Numidian]

Apparently they were so accurate (making head shots at past 200yds) that people investigated the kills as executions. So the m4 works.

Have anything to back up that statement? I've never been in combat...but I highly doubt anyone is placing shots that accurate with any sort of consistency when bullets are going both ways...

 

[Decoy]

Have anything to back up that statement? I've never been in combat...but I highly doubt anyone is placing shots that accurate with any sort of consistency when bullets are going both ways...

I believe that statement came from a Documentary on the M-16. The statement was made about the battle for Fallujah in 2004.

 

[molonlabe]

 

[Kevp]

Have anything to back up that statement? I've never been in combat...but I highly doubt anyone is placing shots that accurate with any sort of consistency when bullets are going both ways...

This is true and it is due to the Corps going to 4x optics. It shouldn't be that much of a surprise to anyone who has used an ACOG or similar 4x.

 

[jaredm1]

Apparently they were so accurate (making head shots at past 200yds) that people investigated the kills as executions. So the m4 works.

This is true and it is due to the Corps going to 4x optics. It shouldn't be that much of a surprise to anyone who has used an ACOG or similar 4x.

You are right...I've never used an ACOG or similar and I am surprised...but I do think it's fantastic.

 

[erwos]

"My gun jams and breaks!" just doesn't strike me as a valid criticism on its own. All guns can jam and break when you submit them to the stress of combat in a hostile environment, even the vaunted AK-47.

So, while this report is probably correct that weapons failures occurred during that particular battle, it is NOT necessarily appropriate to assume that the M4 is an inherently poor weapon. If you assume that a weapons malfunction is essentially a random event (it's not really, but let us ASSUME), multiple simultaneous failures are a real possibility - just like seeing a "run" when you flip a coin.

So, I'd want to see some more data before jumping on the "OMG WE NEED TO GIVE THEM 6.8 SPC SCARS!" train.

 

[racinghoss]

Have anything to back up that statement? I've never been in combat...but I highly doubt anyone is placing shots that accurate with any sort of consistency when bullets are going both ways...

Dont generalize combat. Not everyone is always getting shot at. I would put my entire paycheck to your $10 bill that most Marines from a concealed position (not being directly fired upon) could make headshots all day long at 200 yards, with open sights. Any Marine on this board can attest for the importance the USMC places on marksmanship.

Granted, if you are popping up for 2 seconds and popping off rounds at general targets, then most (if not all) headshots would be luck.

 

[303_enfield]

"As an aside: don't the Isealis have a rather unique and dependable rifle? Could we buy/copy that at some point?

Splitter"

Israelis use M-16 based rifles. Given to them buy Uncle Sugar. Israel improves anything they buy. They test the hell out of it and make changes that work.

"If the m4 did not fail in Iraq, then why is it failing other places?
If I recall, US Marines would ride up in on a city, have a fire fight and take the city. Apparently they were so accurate (making head shots at past 200yds) that people investigated the kills as executions. So the m4 works."
...

Well, the USMC carries "Muskets" (M16A2's and M16A4"s) for the most part, NCO's and O's get M4's. 90% have optics that is a force multiplier.
An the M4 has failed in Iraq. Same with the M9, M249,magazines,lack of armor.........

I don't "hate" the M-16 platform, but I hate the M4 for anything other then close work. The M4 does fail faster the a M16 on burst. Semi works fine if the weapon is wet. I hate the M4 for lack of range plain and simple.

As to failures, I've had three in combat that didn't involve a mag. Twice a small pebble(sand) got under the sear/trigger. Pull as hard as I could nothing happened. Pull charging handle (dumped round), checked safety, aimed and no bang. Beat rifle, dropped mag, put new mag in, and one round fired. This went on a few seconds(seemed like forever) of work/no work, while getting shot at. Finally shotgunned my rifle and saw the pebble (fu#ker look huge) turned rifle and dumbed it out and got back in the game. Now, I rusted and dust my rifle every day. Cleaned and lubed if going on mission. But, when you take cover on the sandy, rocky ground or are hit by an IED shit gets in everything. Change your mag get crap in you weapon.

Third failure was an easy fix for old school guys. Fired round stuck in chamber. Dropped the mag, cleared live round and mortared brass out. Put new mag in and shoot.

Now in training I've had and cleared (mine and others) tons of failures. 90% could be traced to the magazine. If your mag fails, crush it plain and simple.
5% to worn out, past TI date or assembled wrong after coming back from yearly inspection. Other 5% operator error , no lube, half ass maintenance, and listen LACK OF TRAINING. Just because someone in in the service does not mean they are a gun expert. Some units only fire the Q course once a year. 18 rounds to zero (54 rounds (three tries), if zeroed move to the qualification course 40 rounds (80 rounds two tries).

Everything breaks, Murphy just finds you at the worse time. Your weapon is made by the lowest bidder. The builder/maker can't make changes (that work or not) without the Gov. ok. Took 20 years for Colt to get Gov. approval for the new rubber insert for the extractor (spring).

Who here shoots and owns a weapon the never has failed? Failure to load, go into battery, extract, range ...

Ever have your car just fail? Mechanical things fail! Who would have thought?

I have never seen a perfect weapon, all have good and bad. Hell, nukes work great. But then the land is worthless for years. My 303's are still being used in Iraq, A Stan, Paki ....... Great old girls with range to boot. But they are not target rifles. Target rifle make terrible combat rifles (the Ross). Learn what you have. If you fail your rifle, she will fail you.

My 2¢ been there and done that.

 

[Streetgang]

Dont generalize combat. Not everyone is always getting shot at. I would put my entire paycheck to your $10 bill that most Marines from a concealed position (not being directly fired upon) could make headshots all day long at 200 yards, with open sights. Any Marine on this board can attest for the importance the USMC places on marksmanship.

Granted, if you are popping up for 2 seconds and popping off rounds at general targets, then most (if not all) headshots would be luck.

I'll second that hoss. I have no doubt in my military mind that a well trained Marine (they all are) or spec ops operator could pull it off under such circumstances.
Its like shooting fish in a barrel if you're set up right.

 

[boricuamaximus]

Upgrade them to 6.8 SPCs by LWRC.

Rock Solid piston system and out to 300yds it has the same percs of .308 with recoil of a .5.56

 

[gamer_jim]

My bro in-law is in the Army and HATES the m4/16 platform. He keeps referring to it as "what we get when we buy from the lowest bidder".

 

[aquaman]

Dont generalize combat. Not everyone is always getting shot at. I would put my entire paycheck to your $10 bill that most Marines from a concealed position (not being directly fired upon) could make headshots all day long at 200 yards, with open sights. Any Marine on this board can attest for the importance the USMC places on marksmanship.

Granted, if you are popping up for 2 seconds and popping off rounds at general targets, then most (if not all) headshots would be luck.

Your statement about open sights reminds me, my buddy in the Marines says they now allow people to qualify with their optics. Good idea or no?

 

[Kevp]

Did you guys read my post? The reason guys are now able to do this is because of the proliferation of 4x optics w/BDC reticles in both the Corps and Army. The Trijicon TA31RCOM4 is the standard 4x issued to the USMC and now the Army (for use on the M4) which adopted the USMC requirement. The Corps uses the RCO A4 for their M16A4s. Hitting a 200yd head shot with a 4x does not take a highly qualified marksman- all it takes is a guy applying good fundementals of marksmanship. If anyone doubts this, come up to Mifflintown next time we go and you can see it firsthand on steel plates at 200 and even further.