Looking for more clarity on gifts

[DirtyBrad]

I think I mentioned once or twice that this isn't something I have any interest in doing. I'm sorry if that's coming across as "wink wink", but that's not how I mean it at all.

I've said in every way I can think of that I just think this is an interesting conversation. I don't personally think the firearms laws are foolproof. I've often found them very murky actually. To me discussing fringe hypotheticals is a good way to get a better handle on the law in general.

I'm sorry it's wound you up so much. Maybe someone else can jump in and continue it.

Here's where I'm confused. If it's perfectly legal for her to own a handgun in MD that she's not connected to on paper, why is it illegal if that gun once belonged to me?

Again, I realize that any fool would be able to see that I gave her the gun. But isn't what's illegal the act of the transfer and not the resulting state of things? If that's true, then I don't see the problem in the traffic stop scenario.

That is, in the scenario we talked about earlier where she tells the cop about the gun in a routine traffic stop and he asks where she got it. Not the one where I throw a gun into her car and then she circles at 100mph.

 

[DirtyBrad]

Context matters, DirtyBrad. If you did what you state while living in Virginia, you were following the laws as they exist in Virginia and such a transfer would be legal. Because regulated firearms legally owned prior to moving into Maryland are not subject to registration of ownership.

In Maryland, there is something illegal about her owning a gun that once belonged to you if the act you performed in Virginia was performed exactly the same way here. It isn't a question, really, but rather a statement of reality. Virginia and Maryland are not the same and have different rules regarding the exact same circumstance. One is sensible, the other is draconian.

You may not see it as illegal and that is fine. I'm not a lawyer and if you have questions about the applicability and legality and actions involving firearms, please consult one in this state who is familiar with the issues. Perhaps you can be a test case.

From a property rights perspective, I absolutely agree with you. It is wrong that we have differing standards depending on which imaginary line we cross. I don't like the fact that the state gets to dictate how I choose to transfer or dispose of my private property. But firearms seem to be a special class of property that the State and Federal government want to regulate.

I would point out that PA has very similar laws to MD with regard to handguns. You can't do private transfers of handguns between individuals there despite the fact that PA is a very gun-friendly state.

You're welcome to argue the semantics of this all you wish. It doesn't change facts that such an act, even undiscovered, would be illegal.

Matt

Matt,

I completely agree with you. And let me state yet again, that I in no way am planning on doing this. Really.

I'm also not disputing that doing it in MD would be illegal. I 100% agree, which is why I wouldn't do it and why she wouldn't agree to it even if I tried.

My point was only that I don't see how the resulting state of things would be illegal. If I understood correctly, a previous poster was saying that her owning a gun previously registered to me would, in and of itself, be breaking the law.

It seems sort of a parallel to the 30-round mag thing. I can go to VA and buy one and bring it back here and be cool. But if my friend did the same and I bought it from him here, I'd have broken the law at the point of transfer. But there, too, the resulting state of things (me owning the magazine) would not itself be violating any laws.

 

[vette97]

Scenario: I put the money on the table, and she did the paperwork, when my girlfriend wanted a Ruger .22. That was the easiest way for us to handle it and it also didn't reset the 30 day wait for me, if I found another regulated gun that I wanted.

If your intent is to loan it to her, and you both agree on that, then she can possess it legally for sporting purposes if she is not a prohibited person. If your intent is to gift it to her, and she accepts responsibility for it, get the paperwork done to cover it as a legal transfer. That way you have CYA. Things like theft or having your vehicle disabled during an accident while legally transporting a handgun open the door to incriminate yourselves.

If you're looking for sympathy regarding the rationale of the scenario, then we're with you. Being an ex-PA resident, there were so many things about MD laws that didn't make sense. How do we fix it? Write your legislators often until you can't take it anymore and move out. Everyone on here knows that MD laws were written by legislators who are slanted anti-gun, as a whole. That means they probably never owned one because they are scared of them. They don't understand why we enjoy them nor the issues we deal with just to stay legal, even though we're willing to do it to CYA. They just take Brady talking points and turn them into laws, slowly but surely, to make it more difficult for us to enjoy this hobby.

 

[DirtyBrad]

No, no, don't need any sympathy. I was just looking to understand things.

Thanks for all the info. I'll definitely be observing the letter of the law when I get it.

 

[kevoxlfx]

this is a quick solution to the problem
step one. cut a hole in a box
step two . put your junk in that box
step three. make her open the box
and thats the way you do it ....

 

[zombiehunter]

this is a quick solution to the problem
step one. cut a hole in a box
step two . put your junk in that box
step three. make her open the box
and thats the way you do it ....

How to effectively salvage a thread full of fail ^^

 

[DirtyBrad]

Okay, so say she's driving around the beltway at 100mph with my junk in a box in the back seat...

 

[honda53s]

id only do step one. just give her a box with nothing in it. no girl is worth anything else.

 

[novus collectus]

A little items mentioned in this thread which I have a problem with....

1) the handgun is not registered in your name in MD unless you do so voluntarily. Handgun transfers are "recorded".
2) the gun is not recorded as being in your name, it just records the transfer to you. YOu can no longer own the handgun in the future and belong to someone else without the state having to be notified and so it is not really considered as being in your name.



Ok, now for the transfer. You can gift the handgun to someone, but unless they are a parent, sibling, grandparent, spouse, child of or grandchild of yours, you have to transfer it like you would anyone else. I also beleive you can buy the handgun and put down it is a gift when you do, but do so knowing the other person has to do the transfer to them through the MDSP.
YOu can lend her the gun and let her use it when you are not there, but it will still be yours unless you transfer it to her through the MDSP.
There is a way to transfer it to her without involving the MDSP, but you both would have to reside in another state when the transfer occurs. When you move back the gun will legally be hers even though you were recorded as the purchaser by the MDSP.

I can cite the code if you like.

 

[DirtyBrad]

Novus, thank you for answering my questions. Can you re-state #2 above? I don't quite get what you mean there.

My impression has always been that handguns aren't technically registered, but it seems like they effectively are. I'm glad I started off on this wacky tangent here because it's making me try to look more directly at all this.

To me, "registered" means the state has a record somewhere that DirtyBrad owns .357 #1234. Now, I think they say that's not really the case, but I don't really know. Here's another list:

1. The cops hear I'm making pipe bombs in the basement, so they send SWAT over. SWAT wants to know what they're up against. I'm assuming that they can type my name and SSN in somewhere and up will pop a list of all of the guns I've filled out paperwork on.

2. I chuck my pistol out the window while driving 100mph on 495. A cub scout finds it a week later and turns it in to the cops. I'm assuming that they can look at the serial number, type .357 #1234 in somewhere and up pops DirtyBrad.

Am I right in both of those assumptions either in what's allowed or what's actually going to happen? If so, that seems like registration to me, no matter what they call it.

I look forward to more education. Or fails. I just live for the excitement.

 

[novus collectus]

Novus, thank you for answering my questions. Can you re-state #2 above? I don't quite get what you mean there.

My impression has always been that handguns aren't technically registered, but it seems like they effectively are. I'm glad I started off on this wacky tangent here because it's making me try to look more directly at all this.

To me, "registered" means the state has a record somewhere that DirtyBrad owns .357 #1234. Now, I think they say that's not really the case, but I don't really know. Here's another list:

NOt "own", but had one transferred at one time. I will explain better below.

1. The cops hear I'm making pipe bombs in the basement, so they send SWAT over. SWAT wants to know what they're up against. I'm assuming that they can type my name and SSN in somewhere and up will pop a list of all of the guns I've filled out paperwork on.

Yes, but just the regulated guns you opurchased in MD.

2. I chuck my pistol out the window while driving 100mph on 495. A cub scout finds it a week later and turns it in to the cops. I'm assuming that they can look at the serial number, type .357 #1234 in somewhere and up pops DirtyBrad.

Yes, you are the likely suspect as being the latest owner because they have a record of only you buying the regulated firearm.

Am I right in both of those assumptions either in what's allowed or what's actually going to happen? If so, that seems like registration to me, no matter what they call it.

I look forward to more education. Or fails. I just live for the excitement.

It is not registration, it is just evidence that you might be the current owner. It is not registration because there are a number of ways you may not be the owner and there is no legal requirement that you have to notify the MDSP that you are no longer the owner except for when transferring to another MD resident. With true registration this would not be possible.

Of the ways you can no longer own the firearm without the MDSP knowing is to live in another state and then transfer it to a resident of that state and if let's say both of you moved to MD later on and the other person was caught doing something wrong with it, they could not convict you of not notifying them (because you didn;t have to) and because the transfer was legal in the other state and because you are not recorded as the owner, just the last person it was transferred to in MD.

 

[DirtyBrad]

Okay, makes sense. That's what I was saying earlier about my girlfriend and I both moving to VA for six months, transferring, then moving back. She owns the gun legally with no record of transfer.

Some people here seemed to think that I was putting that out as a serious consideration. Thank you for following up and helping explain all this. As I said, talking about these weirdo hypotheticals helps make everything clearer for me.

 

[novus collectus]

Okay, makes sense. That's what I was saying earlier about my girlfriend and I both moving to VA for six months, transferring, then moving back. She owns the gun legally with no record of transfer.

Some people here seemed to think that I was putting that out as a serious consideration. Thank you for following up and helping explain all this. As I said, talking about these weirdo hypotheticals helps make everything clearer for me.

Half the stuff I learned about these laws was acquired by asking or thinking about the weird hypotheticals.
For instance, there is one more hypothetical way you could possibly transfer it to her by looking at the letter of the law. Since handguns with barrels 16" or over are not regulated handguns, you could theoretically install the 16" barrel and transfer to her as a non-regulated firearm.

Article - Public Safety

§ 5-101.

(a) In this subtitle the following words have the meanings indicated....


... (n) (1) "Handgun" means a firearm with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.

(2) "Handgun" includes signal, starter, and blank pistols.

(o) "Licensee" means a person who holds a dealer's license.

(p) "Regulated firearm" means:

(1) a handgun; or

(2) a firearm that is any of the following specific assault weapons or their copies, regardless of which company produced and manufactured that assault weapon:

BUt this is just a theory for academic reasons. This is one I would be nervous actually doing, but if need be for some reason someone could use this example as a defense if they were accused of transferring a regulated firearm against the law. It would be up to the state to prove it was not transferred with a 16" barrel attached as I understand it.

 

[DirtyBrad]

That is interesting.

Defining things like this makes my head spin. Add a 16" barrel and it's still a pistol. Don't add that barrel, but add a stock and now it's an SBR. Real trouble. Add both and it's not even regulated any more.

Did someone say firearms laws are foolproof?

 

[Yoboney]

You can buy a gun for a friend as long as the person is not prohibited by law. Now the thing you have to remember is that no matter how many times that gun is transferred if it is ever in a crime and traced it will come back to you.

Unless you are really tight with her and plan on marrying her I would not do it. But you do not have to go to a police station and change ownership of the gun at all. I would tell her it is for her and then if you ever break up it was loaned to her only while you were together.

You can find this info on the atf.gov site too.

 

[Brychan]

You said you want to surprise her and be legal, How about this:

1. Go to the gun store pick out what you want to get her.

2. Pay a deposit on it.

3. Take pic

4. Place pic in box, wrap box

5. Give her box = surprise

6. Take her to store to fill out paperwork (Note: This is just me I would let her check it out at this point to make sure she really likes it and it feels right to her)

7. 7 -10 days later take her to pick it up and go shooting.

All done nice and legal for MD.

 

[bulletbill]

Half the stuff I learned about these laws was acquired by asking or thinking about the weird hypotheticals.
For instance, there is one more hypothetical way you could possibly transfer it to her by looking at the letter of the law. Since handguns with barrels 16" or over are not regulated handguns, you could theoretically install the 16" barrel and transfer to her as a non-regulated firearm.


BUt this is just a theory for academic reasons. This is one I would be nervous actually doing, but if need be for some reason someone could use this example as a defense if they were accused of transferring a regulated firearm against the law. It would be up to the state to prove it was not transferred with a 16" barrel attached as I understand it.

Yes but the BATF would still say that the receiver/frame was still registered as a pistol and once registered as a pistol it's very hard to change. Not impossible but a royal pain in the ass. So I could see the state look to fedcorp and get their ruling. Unless there's sympathetic judge out there, not likely, you'd probably loose that case. Though it does have interesting possibilities.

 

[STSCM]

Does anyone know how to get residency requirements by state? I'm planning on renting a condo in FL for a month, does that establish residency and therefore I can go ahead and pick up what I want? Just curious.

 

[novus collectus]

Yes but the BATF would still say that the receiver/frame was still registered as a pistol and once registered as a pistol it's very hard to change. Not impossible but a royal pain in the ass. So I could see the state look to fedcorp and get their ruling. Unless there's sympathetic judge out there, not likely, you'd probably loose that case. Though it does have interesting possibilities.

It is not registered as a pistol, it was manufactured and transferred as a pistol. But that is besides the point because even though it is still a pistol by MD and fed law because it is les than 26" in length, designed to be fired from one hand and was not made from a rifle, it is not a MD regulated handgun by the letter of the law as I read it when it has a sixteen inch or greater barrel.
However, because it is still a handgun, even though un-regulated, it is still subject to the Handgun Roster.


By the way, the ATF says it is ok to change a pistol into something other than a pistol. If you make one into a rifle and sell it, then it is now and forever a rifle and can never become a handgun (you can make it an SBR though with a tax stamp). But like I said, the scenario is not about making a rifle, it is about a handgun with a 16" barrel that is still a handgun.

Here is an example, this gun is probably unregulated in MD, but youcannot buy it unles it is on the handgun roster:

http://www.uberti.com/firearms/revolver_carbine_and_buntline.php

 

[novus collectus]

Does anyone know how to get residency requirements by state? I'm planning on renting a condo in FL for a month, does that establish residency and therefore I can go ahead and pick up what I want? Just curious.

The ATF says that if you maintain a residence in FL, then while you are residing there you can buy firearms as a FL resident. YOu can have dual residency. However if you are not intending on staying a part time resident in FL, then it gets a little sketchy.

(B11) What constitutes residency in a State? [Back]

The State of residence is the State in which an individual is present; the individual also must have an intention of making a home in that State. A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. If a member of the Armed Forces maintains a home in one State and the member’s permanent duty station is in a nearby State to which he or she commutes each day, then the member has two States of residence and may purchase a firearm in either the State where the duty station is located or the State where the home is maintained. An alien who is legally in the United States is considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in that State and has resided in that State continuously for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale of the firearm. See also Item 5, “Sales to Aliens in the United States,” in the General Information section of this publication.

[18 U.S.C. 921(b), 922(a) (3), and 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.11]

(B12) May a person (who is not an alien) who resides in one State and owns property in another State purchase a handgun in either State? [Back]

If a person maintains a home in 2 States and resides in both States for certain periods of the year, he or she may, during the period of time the person actually resides in a particular State, purchase a handgun in that State. However, simply owning property in another State does not qualify the person to purchase a handgun in that State.

State of residence. The State in which
an individual resides. An individual resides
in a State if he or she is present in a State
with the intention of making a home in that
State.....


Example 1. A maintains a home in
State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting,
fishing, business, or other type of trip. A
does not become a resident of State Y by
reason of such trip.

Example 2. A is a U.S. citizen and
maintains a home in State X and a home
in State Y. A resides in State X except for
weekends or the summer months of the
year and in State Y for the weekends or
the summer months of the year. During
the time that A actually resides in State X,
A is a resident of State X, and during the
time that A actually resides in State Y, A is

I have a feeling that renting a condo would not count as a residence, but a lease for a condo might.