"Life After Deadly Force" P&S Modcast

[hogarth]

Hi all,

The latest Prinary and Secondary modcast (Episode 341, linked to below on iTunes, though it's available in all the major podcast platforms) is a discussion between the host, Matt Landfair, and John Daub of KR Training, Erick Gelhaus (cop and Gunsite instructor), and Guy Relford, 2A and self defense lawyer (he represented Eli Dicken). Both Daub and Gelhaus had to use deadly force (legally), and both describe their own experiences in the events and the aftermath.

Like all P&S modcasts, it's long (I broke it up over some commutes and dogwalks), but this is a must-listen for all members here. From some bravado I've seen here over the years, there are at least a few members who seem almost eager to use deadly force, do third party interventions, etc. Give this a listen to learn what these experiences can be REALLY like. Lawyers, civl suits, PTSD, etc.

 

[teratos]

This is the part often ignored. It’s why I was/am adamantly against Kyle Rittenhouse being in the situation he was allowed to be in.

I’ll give it a listen. Thanks for the post.

 

[4g64loser]

This is the part often ignored. It’s why I was/am adamantly against Kyle Rittenhouse being in the situation he was allowed to be in.

I’ll give it a listen. Thanks for the post.

Saying he should have stayed home or that he should have done like the taco joint guy and rolled out after doing the work?

In all seriousness, some people are able to inflict violence without mental anguish but the majority are not. The legal assache is going to be unpleasant, regardless. Unless you dip out and get away with it (did they ever find taco joint guy in his highly distinctive pickup truck?)

 

[outrider58]

Saying he should have stayed home or that he should have done like the taco joint guy and rolled out after doing the work?

In all seriousness, some people are able to inflict violence without mental anguish but the majority are not. The legal assache is going to be unpleasant, regardless. Unless you dip out and get away with it (did they ever find taco joint guy in his highly distinctive pickup truck?)

I believe taco man came in from the cold(at least I recall hearing that).
I will try and give this a listen during my commutes, if I can figure out how...

 

[4g64loser]

I believe taco man came in from the cold(at least I recall hearing that).
I will try and give this a listen during my commutes, if I can figure out how...

I get the feeling that taco man is going to regret that decision.

 

[outrider58]

I get the feeling that taco man is going to regret that decision.

I'm not sure. I'll have to sniff around and see if I can find an update.
I'm still convinced the coup de grace shot was a ND.

 

[4g64loser]

I'm not sure. I'll have to sniff around and see if I can find an update.
I'm still convinced the coup de grace shot was a ND.

Even if it was an ND, that's why muzzle discipline is a thing.

Even if cleared of criminal charges, the scumbags family is going to try to win the ghetto lottery.

 

[outrider58]

Even if it was an ND, that's why muzzle discipline is a thing.

Even if cleared of criminal charges, the scumbags family is going to try to win the ghetto lottery.

No doubt.

 

[teratos]

Saying he should have stayed home or that he should have done like the taco joint guy and rolled out after doing the work?

He did a perfect job. I’m more worried about his psychological disposition. There is a big difference between the way soldiers are put in that position, with orders, support, desensitization in training etc., and a 17 year old alone in a riot.

 

[4g64loser]

He did a perfect job. I’m more worried about his psychological disposition. There is a big difference between the way soldiers are put in that position, with orders, support, desensitization in training etc., and a 17 year old alone in a riot.

Possible problem.

Not everyone is made to kill but some are. A guy I know escaped vietnam on a boat, and saw a lot of people die on the boat. He and his father both killed people in the process of getting the family out. He was about ten, based on his age now. I don't see any outward signs of trouble in him. He built a life here in the states, raised a family, and most would have no idea the road he travelled to get here.

 

[teratos]

Possible problem.

Not everyone is made to kill but some are. A guy I know escaped vietnam on a boat, and saw a lot of people die on the boat. He and his father both killed people in the process of getting the family out. He was about ten, based on his age now. I don't see any outward signs of trouble in him. He built a life here in the states, raised a family, and most would have no idea the road he travelled to get here.

Oh, I get it. One of my best friends just retired after 20 years with 5th Group. Something like 10 tours. Silver Star for defending his guys with the M240 from their vehicle when it hit an IED and flipped over them came under attack. He’s bumped off a bunch of bad guys. Good Christian, a-hole wife, but good circle of friends. He has no problem with any of it. Certainly doesn’t broadcast, but is comfy in his own skin. OTOH, I know a cop who killed a couple of guys who killed his partner in a shoot out. Great guy, tough guy, too. Not in a bad way. Had PTSD badly.

I’d still rather not put 17 year olds in a position where they may need to shoot someone.

 

[4g64loser]

Oh, I get it. One of my best friends just retired after 20 years with 5th Group. Something like 10 tours. Silver Star for defending his guys with the M240 from their vehicle when it hit an IED and flipped over them came under attack. He’s bumped off a bunch of bad guys. Good Christian, a-hole wife, but good circle of friends. He has no problem with any of it. Certainly doesn’t broadcast, but is comfy in his own skin. OTOH, I know a cop who killed a couple of guys who killed his partner in a shoot out. Great guy, tough guy, too. Not in a bad way. Had PTSD badly.

I’d still rather not put 17 year olds in a position where they may need to shoot someone.

Better not to put anyone in that position but I can say for a fact that the young ones (a LOT younger than 17 included) think about it a lot less before pulling the trigger. And you know even better than I do that the military wants em young for a reason.

 

[teratos]

Better not to put anyone in that position but I can say for a fact that the young ones (a LOT younger than 17 included) think about it a lot less before pulling the trigger. And you know even better than I do that the military wants em young for a reason.

Yep.

 

[outrider58]

Better not to put anyone in that position but I can say for a fact that the young ones (a LOT younger than 17 included) think about it a lot less before pulling the trigger. And you know even better than I do that the military wants em young for a reason.

Time builds callus. The trick is living long enough to allow them to form.

 

[4g64loser]

Time builds callus. The trick is living long enough to allow them to form.

Rules for the fight: win the fight first because if you don't, the other rules don't matter.

 

[Biggfoot44]

At least as much is dealing with society's reaction to you , as to the actual events .

Cynically , but true - You have to be alive afterwards to have PTSD .

 

[4g64loser]

At least as much is dealing with society's reaction to you , as to the actual events .

Cynically , but true - You have to be alive afterwards to have PTSD .

Agree absolutely with this.

The first part is especially true of OIS for sworn officers. Highly politicized self defense shoots go high on this scale as well (Rittenhouse).

The second part is unassailably true in every case.

 

[RFBfromDE]

From some bravado I've seen here over the years, there are at least a few members who seem almost eager to use deadly force, do third party interventions, etc.

I keep hearing about such people but don’t see any.

 

[RFBfromDE]

I'm still convinced the coup de grace shot was a ND.

I want you on my jury!

 

[4g64loser]

I want you on my jury!

I want our clown on all my juries.