LEO Ignorance of SB281 (and gun law in general)

[pitpawten]

So this isn't another rant about MSP interpretation, but more of a warning/reminder/heads up.

There is no reason to expect that that any individual LEO (MSP or otherwise) will be up to speed on gun law after Oct 1.

Case in point, yesterday I did a transfer at MSP barracks, and the trooper in charge was ignorant on multiple points.

1. He didn't know that SBR's were handled differently and I believe would have (if we had tried) processed the transaction of an SBR as a normal regulated firearm not knowing the difference.
2. Although we had done our homework regarding transfer via Power of Attorney, he had "never heard of it before" and completely took our word for it in allowing us to transfer to a person who wasn't present (with only a photocopy of the license :|).
3. When asked to confirm the possession vs purchase of 20rd+ mags after Oct 1 (just wanted to hear someone from MSP say it ) his response was to ask us "What is the limit going to be when it changes?"

This isn't a statement about him or any other LEO but rather to reiterate that we should be prepared to defend ourselves in the field with regards to current law post Oct 1. If/when you run into a situation where a given LEO is ignorant of the law, and wants to press the point, the burden of proof will suddenly lie on you.

To that point, have we (MDS) compiled a concise 1 page doc citing current MD/ATF law and AD interpretation to be carried in the field to help head off trouble in the eventual encounter with a LEO doesn't know the law for whatever reason?

 

[occbrian]

I'll have a copy of all regs, laws and applicable AG opinions in my gun case.

 

[Mr H]

Great points.

Luckily, my recent transfer was with a couple of pretty aware Troopers.

I'll be printing out quite a bit of material for the tote bag, that's for sure.

 

[joppaj]

It's worth remembering that a printed copy won't mean much on road side to some extent. We argue here about whether something is a copy of a regulated weapon. how much more confusing is it for a cop that isn't in to guns and likely will receive little training on it. Thankfully (in this case); 281 doesn't change much at road side. It's much more about what we can't buy.

 

[SRD]

I'll have a copy of all regs, laws and applicable AG opinions in my gun case.

+1.
I've been doing this in one form or another for yrs.I couldn't tell you how many times I've had to educate/correct LE on certain things.It's been said on this forum many times that not all LEO's are gun enthusiasts.

 

[pitpawten]

I'll have a copy of all regs, laws and applicable AG opinions in my gun case.

Good stuff, i've not yet compiled this.

On this point, do you happen to have a copy of the AG opinion that was recently mentioned in another thread regarding purchase vs possession of mags?

I couldn't tell you how many times I've had to educate/correct LE on certain things.

Yeah, I've had to do this with auto-regs before....frustrating.

 

[Safetech]

That's a good idea, OP.

I keep a couple pages printed out on carry/firearms policies for some of the places where I do work, in my pistol box in the truck. I show it to security when they aren't aware/sure of the policy. A couple have asked if they could make copies of it to keep in the Guardhouse.


Before I had my permit, I kept (probably still in there) a letter from the MD State's Attorney about loaded magazines, in my range bag.

You can never have too much "proof"!

 

[tsmith1499]

I also am not picking on LEO's but for the most part they are not Lawyers and are not up on ANY laws. They have a hard enough time just dealing with the public daily to go and research all the new laws Crapnapolis comes up with. I have several LEO friends and they tell me straight up that they don't know everything. That's why they carry those books in the trunk. Same as us, for reference.

 

[SRD]

Good stuff, i've not yet compiled this.

On this point, do you happen to have a copy of the AG opinion that was recently mentioned in another thread regarding purchase vs possession of mags?



Yeah, I've had to do this with auto-regs before....frustrating.

Yeah,don't even get me started on that.

 

[pitpawten]

I also am not picking on LEO's but for the most part they are not Lawyers and are not up on ANY laws. They have a hard enough time just dealing with the public daily to go and research all the new laws Crapnapolis comes up with. I have several LEO friends and they tell me straight up that they don't know everything. That's why they carry those books in the trunk. Same as us, for reference.

Yeah, no doubt. Have a bunch of friends/relatives that are LEO so totally get that. And like in any job, you've got some who are more dedicated to it than others.


Is it worth creating a compilation thread where people can share existing Opinions/Regs that they currently reference/carry with them to help compile them for newer guys and keep a reference list of sorts?

 

[DaemonAssassin]

A friend and I did a transfer of a stripped lower about a month ago at MSP Frederick. The trooper was honest about the whole process since neither of us had done a transfer at MSP before, and he answered all the question we had about the forms. I had questions about MDC status and how the transfer would be affected due to me leaving MD in October at some point. All around a knowledgeable trooper and a great experience. Although he did spend a lot of time looking at that engage billet lower. I think I saw him drool a little bit when he was looking it over for the serial.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Not a slam , but LEOs don't know , or particularily expected to know "Laws" or "Court Cases" . They are responsable for knowing Memoranda , and General Orders. If they need to know somthing , their Chain of Command will issue it at Roll Call.

 

[jaybee]

hell, the politicians that wrote the law don't know it or how to implement it

the confusion at the top flows downhill

when I did a MSP transfer, it was cool and turned into a BS session about firearms

 

[Overboost44]

It would be nice to have a piece or two or 10 of paper with just the pertinent laws on it to keep in your gun case. Does someone already have something like this that is cut and pasted to take up minimal space? Or did I just volunteer for something?

 

[Doctor_M]

Ditto for me, if someone is kind enough to PDF something, I know a couple of dozen folks who would really like something like that.

 

[Sundazes]

If we can figure it out, the people who wrote it can't figure it out, the AG, can't figure it out, how the hell is the LEO on the beat supposed to know any of this.....

 

[fabsroman]

+1.
I've been doing this in one form or another for yrs.I couldn't tell you how many times I've had to educate/correct LE on certain things.It's been said on this forum many times that not all LEO's are gun enthusiasts.

LEO's do NOT know all the laws out there. Trust me on that. I have had LEO's put the incorrect code reference on citations plenty of times. I've had them charge clients with incorrect charge, which makes it easy to get the charge dropped.

In my personal experiences with law enforcement, I have found very few that want to listen to me about what the law is. They usually figure they know better. In those cases, it has been a lot better just dealing with the Judge.

 

[Overboost44]

Cheat sheet

Ditto for me, if someone is kind enough to PDF something, I know a couple of dozen folks who would really like something like that.

If some people want to send me copies or documents that I can pull the info from, I will do it.

 

[SRD]

I can try and link/post a couple I have in the next day or so.Not specific to 281,but loaded mags,enclosed holster/cases,etc.

 

[pitpawten]

I think this is a great idea, how about a bit of a broader audience with a dedicated thread too (I can write that up real quick).

Who knows we might get some gems in the form of some lesser known state/ATF opinions to.