Legalities of an AR 80% lower

[klinger44]

My experience on 80% lowers

From all the research ive done and contacting the ATF is this. An 80% lower is not considered a gun just a hunk a metal. Next is right now law abiding citizens can still make their own firearms as long as they are legal to do so. If you are not licensed to own a fully auto then you can make one. If you have a criminal record you can not make one. That being clear you can only make a firearms that are in circulation. You can not make your own crazy gun that is a one off. You must make a 1911 or a ar15 or and 10/22. You meaning only you can make the firearm no one can help you nor can someone make it or start it or finish it for you. You must do all the work. You do not need to put a serial number on it and you do not need to register it as long as it stays yours.( they recommend you put a number of some kind incase it is stolen). You can never sell it or give it away. IF you want to do that it needs a number and to be registered with ATF and become an manufacturer. In my opinion 80% firearms are a good way to go if you are handy and want to learn and become a bit of a gun smith. If you are not handy dont buy one or build one because someone can get hurt. Having built up a few stripped lowers i went and got in 80% ers. My first one went well and i plan on doing another at some point.

 

[klinger44]

Things youll need , a jig for starters, a 2" length of cut 3/8 endmill. a 2" length of cut 5/16 endmill. both for the milling obviously. The trigger pins are 5/32 drill bit and the safety selector is a 3/8 drill bit. A mill is the best way to go but can be done with just a drill press depending on what jig you get. You must do all the physical work. Someone can help you set up your machine and teach you how to use the machine. You must do all the milling and install the lower parts kit yourself.

 

[klinger44]

Also as a remeinder the place where you buy an 80% lower has to keep your info on file. So if you buy 10 online there is a trail. Buy them at a show with cash.

 

[klinger44]

CAN NOT TRANSFER IT TO ANYONE EVER WITHOUT A SEIAL NUMBER.

 

[hollyb1]

If you are not licensed to own a fully auto then you can make one.

Doubtful anyone would go on one post rather than fullly researching the issue but you are not allowed to manufacture full auto firearms unless you are a FFL manufacture with the proper tax stamps approved before construction.

Oh and you might want to use the edit function rather than adding additional posts, the mods may believe you are simply trying to up your post count.

 

[nedsurf]

If you want to sell it to someone. Just loan your friend the drill press, jig, drill bits and end mill to make his/her own lower receiver. Then sell your friend the parts you stripped from your own homemade lower. Then you can keep your own lower receiver, give it to your mom so she can hang it on the refrigerator and say "Look my son/daughter made that!"

 

[awptickes]

Wow. There's a lot of misinformation in here...

Here are some bullets:
-You can build an 80% lower into a 100% firearm, as long as you're not a "prohibited person."
-You can not build with intent to sell. You can sell the lower if you build it and decide you don't want it, but only after it has the engravings on it (serial, manufacturer name, city, state).
-You can build on AFT Approved designs. What this means is that you have to use an approved design, or build yours and send it to the ATF Tech Branch to get approval. (But you run the risk of them not sending it back, so most people draw it up and send drawings first.)
-You can not build a full auto firearm, unless you're properly licensed.
-You can build a semi-auto version of a full-auto firearm, as long as you follow the ATF Tech Branch's guidance on ensuring it's not "readily convertible" back to fully-automatic configuration.
-You don't need more than a vise, various bits, some calipers, and a drill press to complete an 80% AR lower.

 

[Markp]

From all the research ive done and contacting the ATF is this. An 80% lower is not considered a gun just a hunk a metal. Next is right now law abiding citizens can still make their own firearms as long as they are legal to do so. If you are not licensed to own a fully auto then you can make one. If you have a criminal record you can not make one. That being clear you can only make a firearms that are in circulation. You can not make your own crazy gun that is a one off. You must make a 1911 or a ar15 or and 10/22. You meaning only you can make the firearm no one can help you nor can someone make it or start it or finish it for you. You must do all the work. You do not need to put a serial number on it and you do not need to register it as long as it stays yours.( they recommend you put a number of some kind incase it is stolen). You can never sell it or give it away. IF you want to do that it needs a number and to be registered with ATF and become an manufacturer. In my opinion 80% firearms are a good way to go if you are handy and want to learn and become a bit of a gun smith. If you are not handy dont buy one or build one because someone can get hurt. Having built up a few stripped lowers i went and got in 80% ers. My first one went well and i plan on doing another at some point.

CAN NOT TRANSFER IT TO ANYONE EVER WITHOUT A SEIAL NUMBER.

Dude, you are so wrong that it hurts.

Everything in bold is NOT factual. Provide citations in 18 USC Chapter 44 or 27 CFR 478,479 to support your post. It's bad information. Sorry.

1. No where in the law does it state that you have to build an ATF approved design, however if the ATF determines it's a machine gun at some point, they will seize it.
2. No where in the law does it state that you have to sell it with a serial number. There are firearms that have been sold and still transferred today without serial numbers.
3. If you build with the intent to sell, then the ATF believes you need a license because you are a "manufacturer" and then you have to comply with 27 CFR 478
4. You are allowed to have assistance, there is nothing in the law that prevents someone from helping you build a firearm. Show me the cite.

Please do some research before you post.

 

[awptickes]

1. No where in the law does it state that you have to build an ATF approved design, however if the ATF determines it's a machine gun at some point, they will seize it.

I'd like to expand upon this one a little:

Absolutely correct. You don't have to build an ATF approved design, however, if it doubles, even once, it's a machine gun. If they ATF can figure out how to make it into a machine gun easily, it's a machine gun, and you're in posession of it.

Sure, you don't have to use an ATF approved design, but if it can be made into a machine gun, you might run into trouble. All the ATF has to prove is that you may have intended to build something legal that could be "readily convertible" to a machine gun, and they've nailed you. It's all about how badly they want to nail you to the floor. This is why many scratch builders use proven designs for the fire control group, and submit designs to the ATF for approval.

It's your freedom you're playing with, and the ATF doesn't play fair and they reserve the right to change their mind. It's all about having some sort of legal cushion.


If you have questions about home building firearms, I strongly suggest doing a lot of research, and don't trust anything you read on any forum -- only trust a lawyer, ATF official opinion letters, and the actual USC verbiage.

 

[smores]

I'd like to expand upon this one a little:

Absolutely correct. You don't have to build an ATF approved design, however, if it doubles, even once, it's a machine gun. If they ATF can figure out how to make it into a machine gun easily, it's a machine gun, and you're in posession of it.

Sure, you don't have to use an ATF approved design, but if it can be made into a machine gun, you might run into trouble. All the ATF has to prove is that you may have intended to build something legal that could be "readily convertible" to a machine gun, and they've nailed you. It's all about how badly they want to nail you to the floor. This is why many scratch builders use proven designs for the fire control group, and submit designs to the ATF for approval.

It's your freedom you're playing with, and the ATF doesn't play fair and they reserve the right to change their mind. It's all about having some sort of legal cushion.


If you have questions about home building firearms, I strongly suggest doing a lot of research, and don't trust anything you read on any forum -- only trust a lawyer, ATF official opinion letters, and the actual USC verbiage.

So... from what I understand if you build a standard semi-auto AR, with only a hammer pin hole, trigger pin hole, and selector hole you're G2G? How is this different than home-building a 1911 to the standard specs?

If I were to do an 80% lower I'm not sure if I'd use a jig or actually layout where I would drill the holes, and ream them to the proper diameter. Not sure if I would trust a drill bit to get these things done precisely.

 

[awptickes]

So... from what I understand if you build a standard semi-auto AR, with only a hammer pin hole, trigger pin hole, and selector hole you're G2G? How is this different than home-building a 1911 to the standard specs?

If I were to do an 80% lower I'm not sure if I'd use a jig or actually layout where I would drill the holes, and ream them to the proper diameter. Not sure if I would trust a drill bit to get these things done precisely.

Let me start by saying that you shouldn't believe anything you read on the internet, because it's all worth exactly what it's printed on.

Responses to the above questions:
-If you build an AR-15 out of an 80% machined forging, you're probably going to be on the good side of the law. Don't be stupid and you'll be fine.
-It's no different than home-building a 1911 receiver out of a casting, and then putting all the parts together on your new 1911 receiver.
-A jig isn't really required to do an 80% AR lower, but you will need to devise a method of holding the receiver.
-You can drill and get the proper hole size, just make sure you measure before you drill. Drill bits work fine, just make sure your drill press/mill doesn't have excessively worn bearings.

One last one:
-There are some parts of firearms that don't have to be precise, and other parts that do require precision, learn these parts and heed the warnings about them.

Remember kids, read and understand all of the laws, then try building stuff. Don't be stupid, ignorance isn't an excuse, don't lose your freedom because you're lazy, ignorant, or stupid.

 

[smores]

I follow I had just never heard of the ATF approved design thing before.

As a gunsmith I'm fully confident tackling this project, if I were to chose to attempt it.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Xparent BlueTapatalk 2

 

[awptickes]

Typically, the only things that you'd send to the ATF are auto to semi conversions. In turn, they'd give you an approval that it's legal and no-longer automatic or "readily convertible."

 

[Markp]

I'd like to expand upon this one a little:

Absolutely correct. You don't have to build an ATF approved design, however, if it doubles, even once, it's a machine gun. If they ATF can figure out how to make it into a machine gun easily, it's a machine gun, and you're in posession of it.

Even if it is ATF approved and it doubles, it's still a machine gun. Period. Whether the ATF approved it or not doesn't matter. It's an arbitrary administrative decision. You lose when the ATF says you lose. What happens if you leave the disconnector out of an AR-15? Usually it might not double, but with soft primers, full auto. Doesn't matter that its dangerous as hell and likely to have an OOB discharge.

Sure, you don't have to use an ATF approved design, but if it can be made into a machine gun, you might run into trouble. All the ATF has to prove is that you may have intended to build something legal that could be "readily convertible" to a machine gun, and they've nailed you. It's all about how badly they want to nail you to the floor. This is why many scratch builders use proven designs for the fire control group, and submit designs to the ATF for approval.

They will nail you if they want to, no two ways about it, they run the game, staying legal when they hold all the cards. Impossible. That shoe string next to your rifle, that's a full auto accessory. ATF intentionally loading ammo with soft primers... oops, your fault. Don't get me started, the game is rigged, so even if you fully comply and they want to prove a point, you're done.

It's your freedom you're playing with, and the ATF doesn't play fair and they reserve the right to change their mind. It's all about having some sort of legal cushion.

They don't play fair, so why even bother worrying about the design being ATF approved unless you are selling them? Seriously, the list of dirty tricks they have used in the past is ridiculous.


From http://jpfo.org/filegen-n-z/savage2.htm

For instance, in attempting to "prove" that a semi-automatic firearm is, or can easily be made, full-auto, ATF "experts" have been known to attach a variety of devices to the gun being tested. They commonly, for instance, fasten new parts to the firearm or remove parts from the firearm, then hold the resulting device together with duct tape, plastic cable ties, or small metal bars before test firing it. They use these aids because otherwise the components of the jury-rigged test weapon will not hold together on their own. Such a device would be useless in the real world, yet the ATF freely uses these Rube Goldberg contraptions to "prove" that a weapon is illegal, and that the original maker or owner of the firearm is committing a federal crime!...

"Readily restorable" is a term used in the National Firearms Act of 1934 (NFA) and the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA). The term was never technically defined when the laws were written or enacted. In practice, the term "readily restorable" was written into the law to forbid any firearm design that could be converted from semi-automatic to full-auto with "a quick modification." "Quick modification" can be interpreted by FTB to mean "15 minutes with simple hand tools" or "eight hours in a modern machine shop" depending on the whim of the examiner. (I might add that many weapons that are "atf approved" would fail if this definition were applied, e.g. The AK-47, the CETME/G3, and even AR-15.)

If you have questions about home building firearms, I strongly suggest doing a lot of research, and don't trust anything you read on any forum -- only trust a lawyer, ATF official opinion letters, and the actual USC verbiage.

Agreed, you better know what you are doing, because if you build something that the ATF can force to double, it's a machine gun, and you'll be kissing your rights away forever, unless you have enough money to beat the federal government... and it's likely that you don't.

Mark

 

[klinger44]

I feel like most of you all agreed with me just in much clearer way. Sorry if i was confusing. I have the laws in front of me and i posted what i understood to be right. awptickes bullets say the same thing i did. My message was a mess though sorry. And from what i read i can not make a new firearm that has never been made before, never in circulation with out having it approved by the ATF. I didnt mean to say this " If you are not licensed to own a fully auto then you can make one" i obviously meant to say cant, and i meant to say the license to build them not own, sorry. And no way anyone is going to transfer a complete 100% ar15 lower with out a number on it. Im a dope and made things more unclear for people i see that. I wont say anything any more. Peace

Wow. There's a lot of misinformation in here...

Here are some bullets:
-You can build an 80% lower into a 100% firearm, as long as you're not a "prohibited person." said that

-You can not build with intent to sell. You can sell the lower if you build it and decide you don't want it, but only after it has the engravings on it (serial, manufacturer name, city, state). pretty much said that

-You can build on AFT Approved designs. What this means is that you have to use an approved design, or build yours and send it to the ATF Tech Branch to get approval. (But you run the risk of them not sending it back, so most people draw it up and send drawings first.) pretty much said that

-You can not build a full auto firearm, unless you're properly licensed. tried to say this but stated it incorrectly

-You can build a semi-auto version of a full-auto firearm, as long as you follow the ATF Tech Branch's guidance on ensuring it's not "readily convertible" back to fully-automatic configuration.
-You don't need more than a vise, various bits, some calipers, and a drill press to complete an 80% AR lower. wasnt saying you absolutely had to have the equipment i listed but it is all recommended by the companies who sell the lowers

 

[Markp]

I feel like most of you all agreed with me just in much clearer way. Sorry if i was confusing. I have the laws in front of me and i posted what i understood to be right. awptickes bullets say the same thing i did. My message was a mess though sorry. And from what i read i can not make a new firearm that has never been made before, never in circulation with out having it approved by the ATF. I didnt mean to say this " If you are not licensed to own a fully auto then you can make one" i obviously meant to say cant, and i meant to say the license to build them not own, sorry. And no way anyone is going to transfer a complete 100% ar15 lower with out a number on it. Im a dope and made things more unclear for people i see that. I wont say anything any more. Peace

Wow. There's a lot of misinformation in here...

Here are some bullets:
-You can build an 80% lower into a 100% firearm, as long as you're not a "prohibited person." said that

-You can not build with intent to sell. You can sell the lower if you build it and decide you don't want it, but only after it has the engravings on it (serial, manufacturer name, city, state). pretty much said that

-You can build on AFT Approved designs. What this means is that you have to use an approved design, or build yours and send it to the ATF Tech Branch to get approval. (But you run the risk of them not sending it back, so most people draw it up and send drawings first.) pretty much said that

-You can not build a full auto firearm, unless you're properly licensed. tried to say this but stated it incorrectly

-You can build a semi-auto version of a full-auto firearm, as long as you follow the ATF Tech Branch's guidance on ensuring it's not "readily convertible" back to fully-automatic configuration.
-You don't need more than a vise, various bits, some calipers, and a drill press to complete an 80% AR lower. wasnt saying you absolutely had to have the equipment i listed but it is all recommended by the companies who sell the lowers

You did much better the second time around if that's any consolation!

Mark

 

[On_Target]

Wow. There's a lot of misinformation in here...

Here are some bullets:
-You can build an 80% lower into a 100% firearm, as long as you're not a "prohibited person."
-You can not build with intent to sell. You can sell the lower if you build it and decide you don't want it, but only after it has the engravings on it (serial, manufacturer name, city, state).
-You can build on AFT Approved designs. What this means is that you have to use an approved design, or build yours and send it to the ATF Tech Branch to get approval. (But you run the risk of them not sending it back, so most people draw it up and send drawings first.)
-You can not build a full auto firearm, unless you're properly licensed.
-You can build a semi-auto version of a full-auto firearm, as long as you follow the ATF Tech Branch's guidance on ensuring it's not "readily convertible" back to fully-automatic configuration.
-You don't need more than a vise, various bits, some calipers, and a drill press to complete an 80% AR lower.

Thanks for taking the time to disspel the rumors.

 

[59f100292]

so how does gifting come into this. If i build one now, and someday give it to a son or daughter is that legal? What if I simply hold onto the paper weight and build it years down the road with the kid as a project. would that count as him building it him self?

 

[awptickes]

so how does gifting come into this. If i build one now, and someday give it to a son or daughter is that legal? What if I simply hold onto the paper weight and build it years down the road with the kid as a project. would that count as him building it him self?

An 80% lower is not a receiver. It's a piece of metal.

Think of it as giving your son a rough piece of bar stock and teaching him how to make it into something.

 

[metalman3006]

I built this in my driveway from an 80% receiver. Should of seen the strange looks from the neighbors.