Legal Questions Regarding NFA/Class III Firearms

[trickg]

Hypothetical question:

Let's say someone is in possession of a couple of firearms that would be considered regulated according the NFA. Let's also say that for whatever reason there was never any paperwork done for these guns, but that they are old enough and odd enough to be considered C&R and "might" be on a C&R list.

There was once an amnesty period where guns of that nature could have been registered, but now that the time has come and gone, is there anything that can be done now to legally get these guns in a collection, or is this the kind of thing that is better off buried - literally.

 

[trickg]

Yeah - Nevermind on that one - I found the answer I was looking for:

http://armscollectors.com/faq.htm

Has there ever been an amnesty period other than the one that ended in 1968 - that's what this article says, but for some reason I had it stuck in my mind that there was another general amnesty period in the 1990s.

 

[novus collectus]

Yeah - Nevermind on that one - I found the answer I was looking for:

http://armscollectors.com/faq.htm

Has there ever been an amnesty period other than the one that ended in 1968 - that's what this article says, but for some reason I had it stuck in my mind that there was another general amnesty period in the 1990s.

Been a while and I really didn't understand it too much at the time, but I seem to remember something mentioned ina Small Arms Review issue about the 90s amnesty. It was for full auto and for veteran war trophies or bring backs IIRC. Someone was trying to get another one, but I never heard or read about it again.

I don't know about other NFA, but if I were to take a wild guess I would think a Class III SOT FFL might be able newly register them for you with some kind of form or something? Dunno, call an NFA dealer that knows their shit and see what they have to say before you write the ATF.

 

[novus collectus]

By the way, not sure how legal this is, but if let's say someone has a short barreled shotgun they found, I assume if they dissasembled it, then took the parts on two different trips to a Class III manufacturer and had them assemble it and then register it as an NFA for transfer back to you, then maybe, just maybe this is a legal way to do it?
Hey, maybe with a $200 tax you could take it apart, get the form approved and the stamp then reassemble them yourself?

 

[JeepDriver]

If it's an MG, then it can not be registered for civilian transfer. Nothing that was not in the registery prior to the cut off date in May of 1986 can be registered for civilian transfer.

A Class II can build and register MG's for samples or transfer to PD's and such. But they are post dealer samples and can never be transfered to a civilian.

Pretty much all others can be registered on a Form 1.

 

[trickg]

Well, the question arises because of the idea that someone who might possess unregistered NFA/Class III firearms might die and leave those guns behind - what then? What if family members would like to retain those guns for what they are even though they were previously unregistered? Shouldn't there be a way to get those on the books so that they can be kept if the citizen is trying to do the right thing? It would be a shame if some of those things were simply destroyed because they fit the definition of some classification.

 

[Kevp]

Well, the question arises because of the idea that someone who might possess unregistered NFA/Class III firearms might die and leave those guns behind - what then? What if family members would like to retain those guns for what they are even though they were previously unregistered? Shouldn't there be a way to get those on the books so that they can be kept if the citizen is trying to do the right thing? It would be a shame if some of those things were simply destroyed because they fit the definition of some classification.

Then they would be breaking the law the same as their Dearly Departed. Bad juju.

 

[novus collectus]

Well, the question arises because of the idea that someone who might possess unregistered NFA/Class III firearms might die and leave those guns behind - what then? What if family members would like to retain those guns for what they are even though they were previously unregistered? Shouldn't there be a way to get those on the books so that they can be kept if the citizen is trying to do the right thing? It would be a shame if some of those things were simply destroyed because they fit the definition of some classification.

From what I understand, with certain NFA items, if they are dissasembled and the parts are not together, then it can be a gray area on whether or not someone "posseses" an NFA device. I don't think this works for Machine gun parts though.

The opinion notes that some parts could be used without assembling a firearm, but finds that unlikely because of "the utter uselessness of placing the converting parts with the others except for just such a conversion." This suggests that the parts must be in close physical proximity, and questions a prosection based on mere constructive possession.[3]

By contrast, the Contender parts are capable of assembly as a long-barreled rifle. The Court minimizes the fact that other NFA firearms, but not rifle, have combination-of-parts definitions.[4] It states that a firearm is "made" not just if it is "put together," but also if it is "otherwise produced." 26 U.S.C. §5845(i).

Souter writes that, while a rifle may be a combination of parts, the definition of machinegun as a combination of parts in the possession of a person (§5845(b)) "sweeps broader than the aggregation of parts clearly covered by 'making' a rifle. The machinegun parts need not even be in any particular proximity to each other."[5]...


... Justice Scalia, joined by Justice Thomas, wrote a concurring opinion. Scalia agrees with the plurality opinion by Souter that the rule of lenity applies. He opine that the ambiguity arises over whether mere parts constitute a "firearm," not over whether a parts kit has a useful non-NFA purpose, the criterion of the plurality which is not found in the statute. The key to why the Contender items are not a short-barreled rifle is the fact that other NFA firearms are defined as combinations of parts, while "rifle" is not.

Scalia rejects the plurality's imputed redundancy between "putting together" and "otherwise producing a firearm" as definitions of "make." The plurality's interpretation creates a redundancy in rejecting the significance of combination-of-parts definitions.

http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/tc.html

Not totally sure what that all means, but my impression is, with a few exceptions, if they are dissasembled and separate, they are not NFA devices I would assume.
In other rods if there is a short barreled shotgun, taking off the barrel and putting on a legal length barrel makes it just another shotgun and it does not matter if you still have the short barrel. But let's say you wanted to restore it to a SBS, then you get the tax stamp and then put the old barrel back on it.
So before you guys took possession of the parts and the transer of the firearms recievers, make sure they are not NFA devices at the time and possibly taking them apart and seperating the parts or simply adding parts to make them legal might be ok.

But don;t take my word for it, I am not a lawyer.

 

[Kharn]

There's no grey area for MGs, an MG is an MG (and so are the parts that make a semiauto into an MG), same with suppressors.

For short barreled stuff I'd suggest: #1, seperate the barrel from the reciever, #2 calling the ATF from a payphone to ask if the serial number's in the registry (if there's any chance of it), #3 File appropriate form (either tax-free transfer (Form 4? or is it 5 for inheritance?) or Form 1) and wait until form returns to attach barrel to reciever.

 

[JeepDriver]

#3 File appropriate form (either tax-free transfer (Form 4? or is it 5 for inheritance?) or Form 1) and wait until form returns to attach barrel to reciever

Form 5 for inheritance.

 

[trickg]

Form 5 for inheritance.

To my knowledge, Form 5 only works if the firearm already has paperwork on it and has nothing to do with an inherited, unregistered NFA/Class III firearm.

 

[Caeb75]

Trickg...

I think that the amnesty you were referring to was the one where they re-classified certain shotguns. The streetsweeper, USAS 12, and thew African Striker. They offered a free registration to anyone who owned these shotguns. They ended up on Form 5's as they were a free registration. When my friend was going to get his registered, we drove up to PA, and I called from a payphone to get the information, and to make sure he wasn't going to get raided, and then he called back from home after we were assured that it would be cool.

 

[trickg]

Good information everyone - keep in mind that this is hypothetical - it certainly isn't me!

 

[smokey]

Well, the question arises because of the idea that someone who might possess unregistered NFA/Class III firearms might die and leave those guns behind - what then? What if family members would like to retain those guns for what they are even though they were previously unregistered? Shouldn't there be a way to get those on the books so that they can be kept if the citizen is trying to do the right thing? It would be a shame if some of those things were simply destroyed because they fit the definition of some classification.

what guns? if they're not registered they dont exist right?

 

[trickg]

what guns? if they're not registered they dont exist right?

Yeah - I completely get what you are saying. The problem with that is that some of those folks are going to get caught, and when that happens, it adds fuel to the fire of the gun grabbers - it lends credence to their argument that the act of owning a gun makes people into criminals.

I personally believe that when it comes to my rights as a firearms owner that the federal and state governments shouldn't be able to demand any kind of registration or record keeping on firearms I own. That said, I also believe that it's my duty to obey the laws that govern those things if there are laws to be obeyed, even knowing that as I do so, the only people those laws are infringing upon are people like me who will follow the laws - the real criminals sure as heck won't.

 

[carryaglock]

I'm an 07/02 SOT the only course this person would have is either call the ATF after said owner dies and have them collect the weapons to be destroyed and they will give you back the demilled pieces if you like. Or whoever is handling the estate could have them dissassembled and give the ATF whatever part is considered the MG,(it's not always the receiver) and sell the rest or have a title I weapon made from the parts. There is NO way to make them legal if they don't already appear in the NFA registery. If someone were to be caught with them it could mean 20 years in ClubFed and a hugh ass fine. Said person should really weigh the options here...Live a free and happy life, or buy lot's of soap on a rope to avoid bending down while showering along side Big Bubba in ClubFed.

 

[3rdRcn]

I personally believe that when it comes to my rights as a firearms owner that the federal and state governments shouldn't be able to demand any kind of registration or record keeping on firearms I own. That said, I also believe that it's my duty to obey the laws that govern those things if there are laws to be obeyed, even knowing that as I do so, the only people those laws are infringing upon are people like me who will follow the laws - the real criminals sure as heck won't.

+1 Do it the right way and obey any and all laws that govern the sale or possession of said firearms.

 

[novus collectus]

I'm an 07/02 SOT the only course this person would have is either call the ATF after said owner dies and have them collect the weapons to be destroyed and they will give you back the demilled pieces if you like. Or whoever is handling the estate could have them dissassembled and give the ATF whatever part is considered the MG,(it's not always the receiver) and sell the rest or have a title I weapon made from the parts. There is NO way to make them legal if they don't already appear in the NFA registery. If someone were to be caught with them it could mean 20 years in ClubFed and a hugh ass fine. Said person should really weigh the options here...Live a free and happy life, or buy lot's of soap on a rope to avoid bending down while showering along side Big Bubba in ClubFed.

But he didn't say what kind of NFA devices. They could be AOW or SBS/SBR.

Also, even if a machine gun I don't see why someone cannot torch cut the reciever on their own, or permanetly modify it with welding into a title I configuration. I wonder what the ATF would say about that.

 

[Kharn]

Novus:
Someone could torch the reciever to the ATF-required specs (3/8" wide cut, 3 required cuts per reciever in an ATF-defined pattern), but 'once an MG always an MG' is the ATF's position on converting an MG reciever to semiauto. In other words, it cannot be done. You must start over with a bare semiauto reciever, no amount of welding, brazing or cutting can convert an MG reciever into a semiauto.

Kharn

 

[novus collectus]

Novus:
Someone could torch the reciever to the ATF-required specs (3/8" wide cut, 3 required cuts per reciever in an ATF-defined pattern), but 'once an MG always an MG' is the ATF's position on converting an MG reciever to semiauto. In other words, it cannot be done. You must start over with a bare semiauto reciever, no amount of welding, brazing or cutting can convert an MG reciever into a semiauto.

Kharn

Yes, if it is registered as such, but what about an AR15 receiver that was not registered as a MG but was used in a machine gun? If you drop a registered full auto sear in it, then that does not make the reciever a MG as I understand it because you can take the sear out and the reciever is just another long gun reciever again. If hte reciever is not registered as an MG and it cannot fire full auto without the accompanying full auto parts and if the receiver is either modified to be semi auto only or can also be used in semi auto only with the proper parts, then it was not the registered "machine gun", the sear was.

I have to do some research, but based on what I read about this a few years ago I believe you are wrong.

Dear Mr. XXX:

This refers to your letter of February 10, 1995, in which you ask
whether the installation of a registered AR15 drop-in auto sear
into an AR15 type rifle manufactured after the effective date
of Title 18 United States Code (U.S.C.), Chapter 44, Section
922(v)(1) would remove the AR15 rifle from the provisions of
Section 922(v)(1).

Installation of a registered AR15 drop-in auto sear, along with
the necessary M16 trigger, hammer, disconnector, selector and bolt
carrier, into a semiautomatic AR15 rifle would remove the subject rifle
drom the provisions of Section 922(v)(1), as the firearm would
then be a machinegun and not a semiautomatic rifle. At this time,
features such as a collapsible stock, separate pistol grip, and
threaded muzzle with a flash hider could be installed. Please
note that the National Firearms Act Branch of the Bureau of Alcohol,
Tobacco and Firearms must be notified into which firearm you intend
to install the drop-in auto sear and the necessary M16 fire control
components.

Should you later decide to remove the auto sear from the AR15 rifle,
the M16 parts installed must be replaced by semiautomatic configuration
AR15 type parts, as the presence of M16 fire control compnenents
in an AR15 can cause the rifle to operate as a machinegun. Further, a
semiautomatic AR15 rifle would have to conform to the provisions of
Section 922(v)(1). As a semiautomatic rifle that accepts a detachable
magazine, the firearm could have only one of the following features:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter1.txt

Dear Mr. :

This refers to your letter of July 10, 1997, in which you ask about
an HK-91 semiautomatic rifle which had been converted into a
machinegun and then converted back to semiautomatic configuration.

As defined in section 5845(b) of Title 26, United States Code, the
term "machinegun" means any weapon which shoots, is designed to
shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot automatically more than
one shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the
trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any
such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively,
or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in
converting a. weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of
parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in
the possession or under the control of a person.

An HK-91 rifle which shoots automatically is a machinegun as
defined. A "Fleming" HK auto sear which is designed and intended
for use in converting a semiautomatic HK firearm to shoot
automatically is a machinegun. An HK receiver having a receiver
designed to accept a "push pin" grip housing is a machinegun.
Various other modifications or combinations of parts could also
meet the definition of a machinegun.

You advise that you had an HK-91 rifle converted into a machinegun
with a registered "Fleming" registered sear. The model designation
was remarked "G3" and "Fleming Firearms" was marked on the
receiver. The receiver was not modified and still requires a
semiautomatic "clip on" grip housing. You sold the firearm with the
G3 bolt carrier, but retained the registered sear.

-2-

If the receiver had not been modified, the mere fact that the
receiver was marked with the "G3" machinegun model designation
would not place the receiver within the definition of a machinegun.
However, such marking would likely constitute reasonable cause for
any law enforcement officer to believe that the weapon may be a
machinegun.

Installation of a "Fleming" HK auto sear normally requires
modification of several components and several additional parts.
The grip housing needs to be modified to permit the selector to
move to the automatic position. The trigger stop needs to be
removed from the inside of the trigger housing. A machinegun
hammer, bolt carrier, and trip lever need to be installed. Once
modified, the weapon may still be capable of automatic fire even if
the "registered sear" is removed. Further, the modified components
could constitute a combination of parts designed and intended for
use in converting a weapon into a machinegun.

In order to ensure that the weapon would not meet the definition of
a machinegun, all machinegun parts and modified parts should be
removed and all original unmodified semiautomatic parts should be
re-installed. The modified parts and additional parts should be
retained with the "registered sear."

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter22.txt