Just what is . . .

[tc617]

I suggest you closely read question 11c on the FEDERAL Form 4473.



https://www.atf.gov/file/61446/download

The instructions for 11C that states, "...is not prohibited from purchasing, receiving, or possessing a firearm if: (1) under the law of the jurisdiction where the conviction occurred, the person has had been pardoned, the conviction has been expunged or set aside... Persons subject to this exception should answer "no" to 11.c. or 11.i., as applicable."

http://www.mdcourts.gov/courtforms/joint/ccdccr072br.pdf

Probation Before Judgment (PBJ)
Guilty verdict was stricken and probation was assigned; not a conviction if probation was successfully completed.

• Under Maryland Law, Criminal Procedure § 10-105(c)(2)(I)(II), a PBJ can only be expunged after probation is discharged or 3 years after probation was granted, whichever date is later.

So after the conditions of PBJ has been satisfied, three years later it is expunged.

 

[Straightshooter]

No, you can apply for expungement three years after the judgement was made or after conclusion of the pbj period if longer than 3years.

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[tc617]

No, you can apply for expungement three years after the judgement was made or after conclusion of the pbj period if longer than 3years.

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Correct, and as long as it is a non-violent charge and you successfully met the conditions of the PBJ, any reasonable judge should expunge the record.

Maryland states that the guilty verdict is stricken, it is not a conviction after completing PBJ and the record can be expunged after 3-years of the PBJ being assigned. That should meet all of the requirements of the 11.c. exception.

If the MSP still want to dick around with this PBJ nonsense... move to another state and be done with it.

 

[CharlieFoxtrot]

You are eligible for an expungement three years after the date you get the PBJ provided you have no convictions during that period and you have no pending charges. As long as you meet the requirements its automatic and not discretionary. Just a matter of filling out the forms, paying your $30 and waiting.

 

[RoadDawg]

A PBJ for this offense would not make you a prohibited person since it would not be a conviction.

Wrong... How can you say there was no conviction when a conviction (guilty verdict) is first entered and then stricken from the record? The person must plead guilty first, to accept the PBJ.
Find a case where a PBJ was given without first entering a guilty verdict... It won't happen.

Except for the niggling lil fact that a PBJ is NOT a conviction.

Wrong...

I think the kicker is PBJ usually comes after a guilty plea ... so you are screwed up if a question asks if you ever plead guilty.

Bingo...

NO PERSON MAY BE PLACED ON A TERM OF PROBATION WITHOUT A GUILTY FINDING OR PLEA ENTERED.

DON'T get yourself hemmed up on this subject.

I have witnessed it far too many times in court and in proceedings after trial.

The finding or plea of guilty(verdict) is first entered into the record by the Judge. It is then stricken and a PBJ is entered. Probation is not possible with a finding of innocence. All a PBJ accomplishes ... is to suspend the penalty for a period of time during which the person is on probation. Maryland law (AG Frosh's Office)sees this as a guilty finding for the purpose of any criminal records and their use in the prohibition of firearms possession or ownership.

If the probation is not violated. Then the person is not punished as prescribed by law. And then when sufficient time passes, the record may be expunged.

If the probation IS violated... The person is brought back to court and faces the punishment for the original guilty finding.

PBJ is a temporary "get out of jail free" card. Not a finding of "not guilty".

 

[RoadDawg]

IANAL, and I wouldn't even pretend to be one. I'd need a detailed explanation on this. On the one hand it is supposed to be BEFORE judgement. As in, neither guilty or not guilty. My only reference is traffic court and every time I've heard someone receive PBJ it's after a "guilty with an explanation" type plea.

You are confusing "judgement" with "verdict".
Verdict is "guilty" or "not guilty".
Judgement is the prescribed penalty for a finding(verdict) of guilty".

 

[RoadDawg]

However, ta da, PBJ is not a conviction. Judgement = Conviction. PBJ means no judgment.

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Verdict = guilty or not guilty
Judgement = the punishment
PBJ = deferred punishment

The only way you can say you were not found guilty is if you receive a STET. The case is placed on a STET Docket and not tried unless you get arrested again during the STET period. In accepting a STET, a person gives up their right to a prompt trial. And can not complain later that they were denied a speedy trial.

Since the case is not tried... There is no finding of guilty.

 

[2SAM22]

With one stipulation...

Most of this "carries a sentence >2 years thus making you a prohibited person" crap only applies within the confines of this sorry-ass state. A person who decides to move from Maryland to America; Virginia, Texas, Utah, etc will most likely find that they are no longer be a prohibited person... It's amazing how that works!

This is incorrect.

If you read 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(20)(B) you'll see they use "felony" because in most states any crime carrying more than a year is a felony. Maryland is "different" in that they have misdemeanors that can carry a punishment of up to 10 years.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921

(20) The term “crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year” does not include—
(A) any Federal or State offenses pertaining to antitrust violations, unfair trade practices, restraints of trade, or other similar offenses relating to the regulation of business practices, or
(B) any State offense classified by the laws of the State as a misdemeanor and punishable by a term of imprisonment of two years or less.
What constitutes a conviction of such a crime shall be determined in accordance with the law of the jurisdiction in which the proceedings were held. Any conviction which has been expunged, or set aside or for which a person has been pardoned or has had civil rights restored shall not be considered a conviction for purposes of this chapter, unless such pardon, expungement, or restoration of civil rights expressly provides that the person may not ship, transport, possess, or receive firearms.

So in essence, Federal law gives an extra year of wiggle room when it comes to State designated misdemeanors but once the penalty is greater than 2 years the Feds treat it as a felony.

Wrong... How can you say there was no conviction when a conviction (guilty verdict) is first entered and then stricken from the record? The person must plead guilty first, to accept the PBJ.

Wrong...

Bingo...

NO PERSON MAY BE PLACED ON A TERM OF PROBATION WITHOUT A GUILTY FINDING OR PLEA ENTERED.

DON'T get yourself hemmed up on this subject.

I have witnessed it far too many times in court and in proceedings after trial.

The finding or plea of guilty(verdict) is first entered into the record by the Judge. It is then stricken and a PBJ is entered. Probation is not possible with a finding of innocence. All a PBJ accomplishes ... is to suspend the penalty for a period of time during which the person is on probation. Maryland law (AG Frosh's Office)sees this as a guilty finding for the purpose of any criminal records and their use in the prohibition of firearms possession or ownership.

If the probation is not violated. Then the person is not punished as prescribed by law. And then when sufficient time passes, the record may be expunged.

If the probation IS violated... The person is brought back to court and faces the punishment for the original guilty finding.

PBJ is a temporary "get out of jail free" card. Not a finding of "not guilty".

I witnessed probably hundreds if not thousands of the following in my career.

A defendant would enter a guilty plea to a charge, the judge would then "strike the guilty plea and enter a probation before judgment."

How this affects firearm ownership under the current law I have no idea, but just pointing out the interesting verbiage I heard so often.

I haven't looked it up lately to see if it is changed but Maryland Criminal Procedure addresses post-probation issues.

Maryland Code § 6-220 (http://law.justia.com/maryland/codes/2005/gcp/6-220.html)

(b)(1) When a defendant pleads guilty or nolo contendere or is found guilty of a crime, a court may stay the entering of judgment, defer further proceedings, and place the defendant on probation subject to reasonable conditions ...
(g)(1) On fulfillment of the conditions of probation, the court shall discharge the defendant from probation.
(g)(3) Discharge of a defendant under this section shall be without judgment of conviction and is not a conviction for the purpose of any disqualification or disability imposed by law because of conviction of a crime

 

[redeemed.man]

This is incorrect.

If you read 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(20)(B) you'll see they use "felony" because in most states any crime carrying more than a year is a felony. Maryland is "different" in that they have misdemeanors that can carry a punishment of up to 10 years.



So in essence, Federal law gives an extra year of wiggle room when it comes to State designated misdemeanors but once the penalty is greater than 2 years the Feds treat it as a felony.



I witnessed probably hundreds if not thousands of the following in my career.

A defendant would enter a guilty plea to a charge, the judge would then "strike the guilty plea and enter a probation before judgment."

How this affects firearm ownership under the current law I have no idea, but just pointing out the interesting verbiage I heard so often.

I haven't looked it up lately to see if it is changed but Maryland Criminal Procedure addresses post-probation issues.

Maryland Code § 6-220 (http://law.justia.com/maryland/codes/2005/gcp/6-220.html)

(b)(1) When a defendant pleads guilty or nolo contendere or is found guilty of a crime, a court may stay the entering of judgment, defer further proceedings, and place the defendant on probation subject to reasonable conditions ...
(g)(1) On fulfillment of the conditions of probation, the court shall discharge the defendant from probation.
(g)(3) Discharge of a defendant under this section shall be without judgment of conviction and is not a conviction for the purpose of any disqualification or disability imposed by law because of conviction of a crime

G3 seems to say it all. IANAL

 

[Blaster229]

Funny how that works, huh?

Career criminal with associates to rat out? Free pass

Law abiding citizen who fears harm from aforementioned career criminal? BOHICA...

Because a law abiding citizen should have known better

 

[Armati]

PBJ = deferred punishment

.

Nope. Deferred Judgement/Verdict. Your court papers will read "Not Guilty" in black and white. And, depending on many variables, "May possess firearms" could be a condition of your PBJ.

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[protegeV]

Because a law abiding citizen should have known better

Yeah, stay away from malls and carry a video camera....

 

[Pinecone]

However, ta da, PBJ is not a conviction. Judgement = Conviction. PBJ means no judgment.

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The post I was quoting was not about PBJ, but about sentence linght and being prohibited.

Most of this "carries a sentence >2 years thus making you a prohibited person" crap only applies within the confines of this sorry-ass state. A person who decides to move from Maryland to America; Virginia, Texas, Utah, etc will most likely find that they are no longer be a prohibited person... It's amazing how that works!

 

[swinokur]

Most of this "carries a sentence >2 years thus making you a prohibited person" crap only applies within the confines of this sorry-ass state. A person who decides to move from Maryland to America; Virginia, Texas, Utah, etc will most likely find that they are no longer be a prohibited person... It's amazing how that works!

i dunno read the instructions for 11b on the back of a 4473.

 

[habanerchaser]

The real problem is you probably wouldn't get caught unless you had to use it. So if you are using it in self defense it would be hard to claim that since you had an "illegal" firearm in possession.

The only way I would ever think about carrying without a permit is if there was a school shooting/ISiS event at my kids school. (Or if there were Katrina like gangs during SHTF)

 

[Armati]

The real problem is you probably wouldn't get caught unless you had to use it. So if you are using it in self defense it would be hard to claim that since you had an "illegal" firearm in possession.

I bet there would be a SCOTUS case right there. Willing to bet the DA would back off at even the threat of taking the case all the way. The antis lose every time they go to the SCOTUS.

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[CharlieFoxtrot]

Wrong... How can you say there was no conviction when a conviction (guilty verdict) is first entered and then stricken from the record? The person must plead guilty first, to accept the PBJ.
Find a case where a PBJ was given without first entering a guilty verdict... It won't happen.

Wrong...

Bingo...

NO PERSON MAY BE PLACED ON A TERM OF PROBATION WITHOUT A GUILTY FINDING OR PLEA ENTERED.

DON'T get yourself hemmed up on this subject.

I have witnessed it far too many times in court and in proceedings after trial.

The finding or plea of guilty(verdict) is first entered into the record by the Judge. It is then stricken and a PBJ is entered. Probation is not possible with a finding of innocence. All a PBJ accomplishes ... is to suspend the penalty for a period of time during which the person is on probation. Maryland law (AG Frosh's Office)sees this as a guilty finding for the purpose of any criminal records and their use in the prohibition of firearms possession or ownership.

If the probation is not violated. Then the person is not punished as prescribed by law. And then when sufficient time passes, the record may be expunged.

If the probation IS violated... The person is brought back to court and faces the punishment for the original guilty finding.

PBJ is a temporary "get out of jail free" card. Not a finding of "not guilty".

I believe you are wrong on several points. I suggest you read or re-read CP 6-220. I stand by my answer above. You are equating guilty verdict with conviction. It is well settled that a PBJ is not a conviction under Maryland law. If the question is have you ever plead guilty then the answer is yes (assuming it was a plea and not a trial). But the question asked is "have you ever been convicted of a crime?" If the AG considered all PBJ's as convictions (and they do not) then why would certain PBJs need to be listed as dis-qualifiers in the Public Safety Article?

 

[RoadDawg]

I believe you are wrong on several points. I suggest you read or re-read CP 6-220. I stand by my answer above. You are equating guilty verdict with conviction. It is well settled that a PBJ is not a conviction under Maryland law. If the question is have you ever plead guilty then the answer is yes (assuming it was a plea and not a trial). But the question asked is "have you ever been convicted of a crime?" If the AG considered all PBJ's as convictions (and they do not) then why would certain PBJs need to be listed as dis-qualifiers in the Public Safety Article?

Read it however you wish... And then go try to buy a firearm with a PBJ on your record. The MD AG Office/MDSP is reading it the way I posted it. It is not my opinion... It is THEIRS. They are saying that you HAD to be first found guilty to ever receive a PBJ. Therefore, you can not be approved. Once the record is expunged... Then you may ("may"... Not "will") be "NOT DISSAPROVED".

Now... If you can show me a letter from them to the contrary... I'll gladly change my post.

And FTR... I know the difference between "conviction " and "verdict". I am not confusing the two in any way.

 

[RoadDawg]

This is incorrect.

If you read 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(20)(B) you'll see they use "felony" because in most states any crime carrying more than a year is a felony. Maryland is "different" in that they have misdemeanors that can carry a punishment of up to 10 years.



So in essence, Federal law gives an extra year of wiggle room when it comes to State designated misdemeanors but once the penalty is greater than 2 years the Feds treat it as a felony.



I witnessed probably hundreds if not thousands of the following in my career.

A defendant would enter a guilty plea to a charge, the judge would then "strike the guilty plea and enter a probation before judgment."

How this affects firearm ownership under the current law I have no idea, but just pointing out the interesting verbiage I heard so often.

I haven't looked it up lately to see if it is changed but Maryland Criminal Procedure addresses post-probation issues.

Maryland Code § 6-220 (http://law.justia.com/maryland/codes/2005/gcp/6-220.html)

(b)(1) When a defendant pleads guilty or nolo contendere or is found guilty of a crime, a court may stay the entering of judgment, defer further proceedings, and place the defendant on probation subject to reasonable conditions ...
(g)(1) On fulfillment of the conditions of probation, the court shall discharge the defendant from probation.
(g)(3) Discharge of a defendant under this section shall be without judgment of conviction and is not a conviction for the purpose of any disqualification or disability imposed by law because of conviction of a crime

The verbiage was always the same in every case...

Judge: "...I am entering a verdict of guilty in the record, I will then strike the guilty verdict and enter a PBJ..."

The State sees it as a guilty verdict...

The Federal Government sees it as a guilty verdict...
(If someone does not believe they do... Try to get an approval to own or possess a firearm for anyone who has EVER been given a PBJ on a Domestic Assault case.)

Again... It is not MY opinion in this matter... It is THEIRS. I don't agree with it. But I am not in charge nor in any position to change it.

 

[Armati]

Read it however you wish... And then go try to buy a firearm with a PBJ on your record. The MD AG Office/MDSP is reading it the way I posted it. It is not my opinion... It is THEIRS. They are saying that you HAD to be first found guilty to ever receive a PBJ. Therefore, you can not be approved. Once the record is expunged... Then you may ("may"... Not "will") be "NOT DISSAPROVED".
..

Interesting, is there a lawyer in the house?

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