Inexpensive Shotgun for Clays

[Mack C-85]

Go with a 20ga. A 410 is a gun for an experienced shooter. And has limited utility. And the shells are expensive.

Second on the forget the .410. They are fun as all get out to shoot, but with the small shot load and expense, not a beginners gun.

There are also light loads for 20 ga. too!!

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[Pinecone]

Thanks , but thinking (making my life easier) is to get her a 20 or 410 for Mothers Day. If Jlowe had one of them I would of walked out with 2.

A standard target load for a 20 gauge is 1 ounce of shot. A load like the 12 gauge Fiocchi 12TL is 1 ounce of shot.

Basically the same.

BUT, once she starts shooting, with a 12 gauge, she can shoot 1 1/8 target loads for a little more recoil.

 

[Aamdskeetshooter]

A standard target load for a 20 gauge is 1 ounce of shot. A load like the 12 gauge Fiocchi 12TL is 1 ounce of shot.



Basically the same.



BUT, once she starts shooting, with a 12 gauge, she can shoot 1 1/8 target loads for a little more recoil.

A standard 20 ga target load is actually 7/8 oz of shot.

https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/winchester-aa-target-loads-shotshells


From page 43 of the NSCA Rule Book for ammunition.
All shot shell ammunition including reloads may generally be used unless otherwise restricted by the shoot organizers. Reloads are not permitted at Regional Championships, the U.S. Open or the National Championships. Black powder, visual training loads, tracers or tracking devices are not per- mitted in any NSCA registered shooting event. Other shoot officials may also limit the ammunition to commercially manufactured shot shells. The National Sporting Clays As- sociation assumes no responsibility in connection with the use of reloads or commercially manufactured ammunition. Maximum loads for any gauge event may not exceed:
Gauge Ounce Lead 12 1 1/8
20 7/8
28 3/4
.410 1/2
No length restriction on ANY ammunition, maximum weight
restrictions listed, remain the same.
No lead shot smaller than U.S. No. 9 (nominal diameter 0.080) or larger than U.S. No. 7-1/2 (nominal diameter 0.095) shall be used in any load. No steel shot smaller than U.S. No. 9 or larger than U.S. No. 6 (nominal diameter 0.110) shall be used in any load.
Shot shall be normal production spherical shot. Plated shot is permitted

 

[Pinecone]

A standard 20 ga target load is actually 7/8 oz of shot.

OK, thanks.

But, then, there ARE 7/8 ounce 12 gauge target loads. However, many of them are a good bit higher velocity, so probably similar recoil to the 12 gauge 1 ounce loads.

Hmm, it seems Winchester makes a 1 ounce - https://www.academy.com/shop/pdp/winchester-aa-target-load-20-gauge-8-shotshells

Looking, it seems the 20 ga 7/8 ounce loads are 1300 fps. The Fiocchi 12TL I mentioned are 1150 fps, which the same as the the 1 1/8 loads.

I shot a lot of 12TL for practice.

 

[Aamdskeetshooter]

OK, thanks.



But, then, there ARE 7/8 ounce 12 gauge target loads. However, many of them are a good bit higher velocity, so probably similar recoil to the 12 gauge 1 ounce loads.



Hmm, it seems Winchester makes a 1 ounce - https://www.academy.com/shop/pdp/winchester-aa-target-load-20-gauge-8-shotshells



Looking, it seems the 20 ga 7/8 ounce loads are 1300 fps. The Fiocchi 12TL I mentioned are 1150 fps, which the same as the the 1 1/8 loads.



I shot a lot of 12TL for practice.

The sporting clays guys shoot a faster (1300fps) shell than the skeet shooters. The standard skeet load has been 7/8 at 1200 FPS since the beginning of time. The 20ga 1300 7/8 loads fill that niche.

The shell manufacturers came out with the 1oz 20 ga loads for skeet shooters wanting to shoot the 20ga in the 12ga event. A small number of shooters do this so they can shoot the gun with the 20ga skeet tubes (not choke tubes) (Briley or Kolar) installed instead of shooting the 12 ga barrel with a barrel weight. I tried those 20 gauge 1oz loads years ago and they’re not pleasant to shoot.

Now for the 12 ga. Reloaders have been loading down the standard 1 1/8 oz loads forever also. They went to 1oz then 7/8 oz and now there are actually 3/4 oz loads now. The manufacturers saw this and started to come out with lighter loads themselves.
Those loads are different than the fast and light loads. The light and fast 12ga loads you see are for the International clay target disciplines because they require a lower shot charge weight than their American counterparts, but allow faster speeds. The fast 1oz (28 gram) and 7/8 oz/ (24 gram ) loads are for that niche.

That’s probably more information than anyone was interested in knowing regarding shotgun ammunition.

 

[usa259]

I'm fairly new to shotgunning and have considerable way to go on the skill scale. I reload/ use 12ga, 7/8 oz somewhere in the 1200 to 1250 range. The 85yr old I enjoy shooting Sporting Clays with is always pointing out that I have an advantage shooting a 12ga over his 20ga, since my 12ga shoots 1 1/8oz, smh. I tell him I'm basically shooting the same load he is, this conversation takes place nearly every time if not every time... I starting to look forward to when it comes up

 

[Doco Overboard]

"I tried those 20 gauge 1oz loads years ago and they’re not pleasant to shoot."

20 g 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 magnum loads will make you wince with a lightweight gun. Fiocchi manufactures a few different hv loads today for hunting. I buy a box of those (25) for significantly less than specialized turkey ammo (10)
1 0z 2 3/4 dram loads were called target as far back as the late 50's somewhere between then and now 7/8 became more popular I guess because recoil was even more pleasant or for high volume shooting.

I don't know what they do on a skeet range seems like fun. I remember looking forward to using a 20 rather than a 12 when we used to pheasant and grouse hunt. Boy was I wrong when I learned a bout a light gun.
It wasn't hard to go back to a 12 with 2 3/4 unless your in the laurels all day and its steep.

These days when I take the kids and family (adult women) turkey hunting I would load with the mag 20 shells but let them get familiar with the trap skeet loads.
Nobody remembers recoil when they get one as long as the don't get busted in the cheek.

 

[Mack C-85]

Current rules for 20 gauge loads for Sporting Clays (NSCA) and Skeet (NSSA) are limited to a max. of 7/8 ounce loads.

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[Aamdskeetshooter]

"I tried those 20 gauge 1oz loads years ago and they’re not pleasant to shoot."



20 g 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 magnum loads will make you wince with a lightweight gun. Fiocchi manufactures a few different hv loads today for hunting. I buy a box of those (25) for significantly less than specialized turkey ammo (10)

1 0z 2 3/4 dram loads were called target as far back as the late 50's somewhere between then and now 7/8 became more popular I guess because recoil was even more pleasant or for high volume shooting.



I don't know what they do on a skeet range seems like fun. I remember looking forward to using a 20 rather than a 12 when we used to pheasant and grouse hunt. Boy was I wrong when I learned a bout a light gun.

It wasn't hard to go back to a 12 with 2 3/4 unless your in the laurels all day and its steep.



These days when I take the kids and family (adult women) turkey hunting I would load with the mag 20 shells but let them get familiar with the trap skeet loads.

Nobody remembers recoil when they get one as long as the don't get busted in the cheek.

The 1oz loads I tried were marketed to competition Skeet shooters. They weren’t the dove loads or hunting loads you get at Walmart. They still recoiled too much. And I was shooting them out of a 10.5 lb. Beretta 682. You don’t need 1 1/8 oz of shot to break a skeet target. I’ve run a bunch of straights with 7/8 oz and 3/4 oz loads. And you don’t need 1300 FPS either.

 

[Doco Overboard]

The 1oz loads I tried were marketed to competition Skeet shooters. They weren’t the dove loads or hunting loads you get at Walmart. They still recoiled too much. And I was shooting them out of a 10.5 lb. Beretta 682. You don’t need 1 1/8 oz of shot to break a skeet target. I’ve run a bunch of straights with 7/8 oz and 3/4 oz loads. And you don’t need 1300 FPS either.

Yeah I know, you can break a clay pigeon by looking at the box wrong or with one pellet.
You can however turn a good experience into a bad one for a young shooter with the wrong ammo in a twenty for sure especially if they're not ready for it.

You probably shoot thousands of rounds a year all day long and would know through experience when to reduce gauges and when to go up for pellet deformation, adjust speed fr station and all that.
I was lucky to be around some experienced shooters who knew what they were doing and would just listen watch and learn.

I piddle about any more just shooting informal trap just to spend time with the old lady and couldn't hit a bull in the ass with handful of rice after the first round because my attention span goes away these days!
If I go hunting I'm serious about what I do though. If I screw up I know its all me and not the ammo gun or powder charge sectional density and chrono data lol.

I still go out though because I like to shoot and have fun. Thanks for posting good info that's why I read here.

 

[Aamdskeetshooter]

Yeah I know, you can break a clay pigeon by looking at the box wrong or with one pellet.

You can however turn a good experience into a bad one for a young shooter with the wrong ammo in a twenty for sure especially if they're not ready for it.



You probably shoot thousands of rounds a year all day long and would know through experience when to reduce gauges and when to go up for pellet deformation, adjust speed fr station and all that.

I was lucky to be around some experienced shooters who knew what they were doing and would just listen watch and learn.



I piddle about any more just shooting informal trap just to spend time with the old lady and couldn't hit a bull in the ass with handful of rice after the first round because my attention span goes away these days!

If I go hunting I'm serious about what I do though. If I screw up I know its all me and not the ammo gun or powder charge sectional density and chrono data lol.



I still go out though because I like to shoot and have fun. Thanks for posting good info that's why I read here.

I have shot a lot over the years but I’m still a wimp when it comes to recoil. I shot most of the 12 ga and doubles events with the 20 ga because of the recoil. I see it all the time, people shooting heavy hunting loads out of a 6 lb. gun and wondering why it hurts to shoot 25 or 50 clay targets. It’s the worst thing you can do, give a new shooter ammo that’s too stout. Especially a female or kid. They don’t enjoy it, they get beat up and develop a flinch. Good luck in the fields and break em all on the Trap Field.

 

[Pinecone]

The sporting clays guys shoot a faster (1300fps) shell than the skeet shooters.

Are you talking about in 20 gauge?

 

[Pinecone]

Yeah I know, you can break a clay pigeon by looking at the box wrong or with one pellet.

To reliably break a clay, you need to hit it with 3 pellets.

Jerry Meyer, who used to teach with Gil Ash at OSP actually shot a BUNCH of clays to gather this info. He suspended them over a tarp, and collected the piece and reassembled them to see who many pellets.

Yes, one pellet could break it, but it is low probability.

 

[Aamdskeetshooter]

Are you talking about in 20 gauge?

Actually it’s all the gauges. At least Winchester markets shells geared towards Sporting Clays shooters that are above the “normal” 1200 fps that skeet shooters use. I don’t know how popular they are. They call them Super Sport Sporting Clays.

Here’s their whole line of shells.
https://winchester.com/Products/Ammunition/Shotshell/AA

Here’s a shell that would be great for a woman shooter shooting 20ga. Only 980 fps.

https://winchester.com/Products/Ammunition/Shotshell/AA/AA20FL8

 

[Pinecone]

I shot loads at 1140 - 1165 fps. 1 ounce Fiocchi 12Tl for practice and fun. Fiocchi 1165 (I forget the number, and too lazy to go downstairs to check) for matches.

I only shot faster loads (1250 range) for rabbits and far away targets. Normally in 7 1/2

Winchester Super Handicap or Fiocchi White Rhino.

 

[Aamdskeetshooter]

I shot loads at 1140 - 1165 fps. 1 ounce Fiocchi 12Tl for practice and fun. Fiocchi 1165 (I forget the number, and too lazy to go downstairs to check) for matches.

I only shot faster loads (1250 range) for rabbits and far away targets. Normally in 7 1/2

Winchester Super Handicap or Fiocchi White Rhino.

A 1 oz 1150 fps 12 ga is a great load. I wish all of the American shotgun disciplines would go to 1 oz max loads. You just don’t need 1 1/8 oz. The 12 ga Skeet shoot-offs go on forever. That is why the International games kept lowering the max shot weights. They don’t have the time for long shoot-offs. So they went from 32 grams to 28 grams to 24 grams. And made the sequence of targets harder.

 

[fabsroman]

To reliably break a clay, you need to hit it with 3 pellets.

Jerry Meyer, who used to teach with Gil Ash at OSP actually shot a BUNCH of clays to gather this info. He suspended them over a tarp, and collected the piece and reassembled them to see who many pellets.

Yes, one pellet could break it, but it is low probability.

There have been plenty of studies about this. I read about it back in the 90's in some clay shooting magazine. A guy went from range to range, and picked up unbroken clays off the ground. In some of them, he found a single pellet hole, in others he found two pellet holes. However, he never found a single one with three pellet holes. Then, he started analyzing the size of the holes and he found that he never found a single unbroken clay with two #7.5 size holes. His opinion, it takes three #8, three #9, or two #7.5 pellets to break a clay for sure.

Of course, this analysis does not rule out that a single pellet could break a clay, because his study could not have possibly yielded this result unless he was firing a single pellet at the clay. Picking up whole clays ensured that he would never pick up a clay that was broken by a single pellet.

 

[Pinecone]

A 1 oz 1150 fps 12 ga is a great load. I wish all of the American shotgun disciplines would go to 1 oz max loads. You just don’t need 1 1/8 oz. The 12 ga Skeet shoot-offs go on forever. That is why the International games kept lowering the max shot weights. They don’t have the time for long shoot-offs. So they went from 32 grams to 28 grams to 24 grams. And made the sequence of targets harder.

Not for FITASC. You NEED 1 1/8 loads.

 

[Pinecone]

There have been plenty of studies about this. I read about it back in the 90's in some clay shooting magazine. A guy went from range to range, and picked up unbroken clays off the ground. In some of them, he found a single pellet hole, in others he found two pellet holes. However, he never found a single one with three pellet holes. Then, he started analyzing the size of the holes and he found that he never found a single unbroken clay with two #7.5 size holes. His opinion, it takes three #8, three #9, or two #7.5 pellets to break a clay for sure.

Of course, this analysis does not rule out that a single pellet could break a clay, because his study could not have possibly yielded this result unless he was firing a single pellet at the clay. Picking up whole clays ensured that he would never pick up a clay that was broken by a single pellet.

That may have been how Jerry started.

But then he actually shot clays and reassembled them.

And he found that 3 pellets WOULD break them. 1 or 2 MIGHT break them.

 

[Doco Overboard]

On the range when I walk to paste targets I find unbroken clays sometimes with one hole. Never seen one with three. I carry them down and pile them up next to the target post or set them on the berm. If I'm keeping score sometimes I see the hit and and mark it down as such. Often times the shooter doesn't see it.
The ones who do are almost always the same ones that run right over to the score keeper at the end of the round wanting to know how many they missed.
Thats why I dont like keeping score. It's always that or people wanting to talk to you while your paying attention.
Now that I think about it though, I have seen some with a large piece out of the center which could be indicative of two or more pellets striking the same area.
From now on when someone wants to argue a hit, Ill tell them to glue it back together and let me know how many pieces they used.