Indiana Shooter - 8 out of 10 at 40 Yards in 15 Seconds ...

[JohnnyE]

There's a long thread on Pistol Forum about it. It also referenced that again, just like I've said, the first 2 rounds put bad guy out of fight and then he basically did the crab walk back to the restroom, getting shot the entire time.

The thread also included a link to Mike Pannone's kinda sorta rant about Dicken Drills, which I enjoyed.

I've googled what you've referenced but no joy for my skills. Do you have any cites or am I on my own here?

 

[hogarth]

I've googled what you've referenced but no joy for my skills. Do you have any cites or am I on my own here?

Try this:

Indiana Food Court inspired drills - Page 18

Heres a drill/eval: Indiana Intervention Note: shot cold. Target: (1) Pepper Popper, B/C silhouette or equivalent Range: 25 or 40 yards(whatever can be accommodated) Start: Concealed if youre feeling sporty, or ready. Rounds to be fired: 10; if par used, 8/10 hits topass. Timed or...

pistol-forum.com

 

[JohnnyE]

Try this:

Indiana Food Court inspired drills - Page 18

Heres a drill/eval: Indiana Intervention Note: shot cold. Target: (1) Pepper Popper, B/C silhouette or equivalent Range: 25 or 40 yards(whatever can be accommodated) Start: Concealed if youre feeling sporty, or ready. Rounds to be fired: 10; if par used, 8/10 hits topass. Timed or...

pistol-forum.com

Thanks much for this, but as you can tell from my insta-repy, there is still a lot of speculation surrounding this incident.

I'll sit back and wait for more facts, and ideally the videos, to come out. I don't do snap judgments. Facts take time.

 

[hogarth]

Thanks much for this, but as you can tell from my insta-repy, there is still a lot of speculation surrounding this incident.

I'll sit back and wait for more facts, and ideally the videos, to come out. I don't do snap judgments. Facts take time.

Oh for sure.

I just try to apply logic to it. Everything I've read from Dave Spaulding (who evidently has some sort of inside connection to those investigating) and others just makes sense. A lot more sense than goofballs on YouTube.

Drills are drills and it's cool to name a drill after the guy......but the idea that Mr. Bad Guy stood there sucking up 8 shots in 15 seconds without moving (as the drills people are doing suggest) is just ludicrous.

The "15 seconds" came from the one cop who said the shooter was "neutralized" within the first 15 seconds of the bad guy starting this whole thing. "Neutralized" might just mean that the bad guy never fired another round, NOT that Dicken was done firing at that point.

I'm confident that the video, if or when it comes available, will show that Dicken got his first two shots off in that first 15 seconds. Bad guy then decided he had someplace else to be, and Dicken then advanced on him and shot him into the grave. Which is all pretty awesome, by the way.

If "Dicken Drills" encourage people to get out of the "3 shots at 3 yards in 3 seconds" mantra, then that's cool. But any real resemblance to reality is probably just a coincidence.

 

[JohnnyE]

Oh for sure.

I just try to apply logic to it. Everything I've read from Dave Spaulding (who evidently has some sort of inside connection to those investigating) and others just makes sense. A lot more sense than goofballs on YouTube.

Drills are drills and it's cool to name a drill after the guy......but the idea that Mr. Bad Guy stood there sucking up 8 shots in 15 seconds without moving (as the drills people are doing suggest) is just ludicrous.

The "15 seconds" came from the one cop who said the shooter was "neutralized" within the first 15 seconds of the bad guy starting this whole thing. "Neutralized" might just mean that the bad guy never fired another round, NOT that Dicken was done firing at that point.

I'm confident that the video, if or when it comes available, will show that Dicken got his first two shots off in that first 15 seconds. Bad guy then decided he had someplace else to be, and Dicken then advanced on him and shot him into the grave. Which is all pretty awesome, by the way.

If "Dicken Drills" encourage people to get out of the "3 shots at 3 yards in 3 seconds" mantra, then that's cool. But any real resemblance to reality is probably just a coincidence.

Sadly we're still in wait and see mode. Did Dicken advance? How far? How fast? I "presume" that if Dicken saw that his shots were having an effect he may have broke cover and advanced, but how much? There are so many unknowns.

 

[lazarus]

Sadly we're still in wait and see mode. Did Dicken advance? How far? How fast? I "presume" that if Dicken saw that his shots were having an effect he may have broke cover and advanced, but how much? There are so many unknowns.

He did. Beyond that, I don’t think we know. The police did say the first two shots neutralized the bad guy and Dickens advanced on him and continued to fire. Was that he moved 3 feet and fired 8 more shots with 6 hitting? Or did he walk up within knife range and put 6 out 8 in to him?

Or was it the first to shots that HIT him, neutralized him, and then he advanced and continued shooting at the bad guy. He might have only hit with rounds 2 and 4 and then as he moved closer as the guy was neutralized, but him with 6 more in a row at 30, 20 and 10yds.

I’d imagine it’s probably some permutation of that.

 

[Blaster229]

Here's the takeaway from this.
Mobility is survivability. The bad guy stood still, and now he's really still.

 

[outrider58]

He did. Beyond that, I don’t think we know. The police did say the first two shots neutralized the bad guy and Dickens advanced on him and continued to fire. Was that he moved 3 feet and fired 8 more shots with 6 hitting? Or did he walk up within knife range and put 6 out 8 in to him?

Or was it the first to shots that HIT him, neutralized him, and then he advanced and continued shooting at the bad guy. He might have only hit with rounds 2 and 4 and then as he moved closer as the guy was neutralized, but him with 6 more in a row at 30, 20 and 10yds.

I’d imagine it’s probably some permutation of that.

Eventually, we'll learn. My thinking is maybe one out of his first three hit from long distance. Hit hard enough to drop the perp's scrawny ass. Then Dicken moves in to find him squirming around on the deck, so he finishes the perp off at close range.
That's just my imagination running amuck.

 

[Baccusboy]

Per photos taken before the attack, the perp had several magazines strapped across his front. It is feasible they may have blocked or slowed a bullet or two.

I also doubt the idea that 8 shots were dumped into the shooter while he patiently stood there.

 

[lazarus]

Per photos taken before the attack, the perp had several magazines strapped across his front. It is feasible they may have blocked or slowed a bullet or two.

I also doubt the idea that 8 shots were dumped into the shooter while he patiently stood there.

A full mag won’t stop a 9mm. It’ll for sure slow it down, but it isn’t sufficient to stop or deflect one unless it’s at a heck of a shallow angle.

The bullet is still going to have the energy to penetrate the skin. And likely in this case send a spray of magazine/other bullets/casing fragments in to the person wearing them. At long range it might be enough to stop one.

Probably won’t penetrate super deep, but you are going to be a serious world of hurt still.

 

[Malachi.2.15]

A full mag won’t stop a 9mm. It’ll for sure slow it down, but it isn’t sufficient to stop or deflect one unless it’s at a heck of a shallow angle.
.

I have it on good authority that a 9mm will blow a lung right out of a person...

 

[Mike OTDP]

I think the big point is that mastering the longer ranges is an essential skill. Train at 50 yards, and lesser distances are pathetically easy.

 

[lazarus]

I have it on good authority that a 9mm will blow a lung right out of a person...

So will a hard hike with a heavy pack after drinking too much the night before. Lungs are fragile things :-p

 

[lazarus]

I think the big point is that mastering the longer ranges is an essential skill. Train at 50 yards, and lesser distances are pathetically easy.

To a degree. But shooting at closer range involves different shooting. You should not be aiming at 3yds. Heck, you shouldn’t be aiming at 7yds even. You should be point shooting and possibly shooting on the draw as you bring up and extend your pistol depending on the circumstances.

Different skills and being wrapped up in quick draws and then accurate but fast long range shooting does not hone what you need to do for short range shooting.

You should practice both. Unfortunately I can only dry fire practice the short range stuff (the range I belong to, sensibly, does not allow shooting from a draw)

 

[outrider58]

I think the big point is that mastering the longer ranges is an essential skill. Train at 50 yards, and lesser distances are pathetically easy.

I did this for years in archery. I would practice out to 70 yds. It made 40 yd shots doable and anything within 30 yds was a chip shot.
Nowadays, I just go out into my back yard for a few sessions just before the season start and work on my shot routine at about 15 yds and I'm good out to 30. That's about as far as I want or need to shoot at deer anymore.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Here's the takeaway from this.
Mobility is survivability. The bad guy stood still, and now he's really still.

The Other Take away is ability to move beyond proverbial 3-7 yds , to be able to make hits on life size targets , with majority of shots , out to at least 25yds , preferably at bit more .

Since I'm specifying "most shots " , and whole life size sil , this is doable , with all but the suckiest guns like Derringers .

I think the big point is that mastering the longer ranges is an essential skill. Train at 50 yards, and lesser distances are pathetically easy.

To a degree. But shooting at closer range involves different shooting. You should not be aiming at 3yds. Heck, you shouldn’t be aiming at 7yds even. You should be point shooting and possibly shooting on the draw as you bring up and extend your pistol depending on the circumstances.

Different skills and being wrapped up in quick draws and then accurate but fast long range shooting does not hone what you need to do for short range shooting.

You should practice both. Unfortunately I can only dry fire practice the short range stuff (the range I belong to, sensibly, does not allow shooting from a draw)

Here we see Mike OTDP and Lazarus staking out opposite ends of approach and philosophy . And when such debates take place , each side is usually using different semantics that muddy the conversation . Particularly in describing your own , and the other guy's ( methods of make pistol bullet hit where desired ).

I'm much closer to Mike . As rule of thumb , experienced precise shooters can speed up a lot better than spray & pray speedsters can get accurate .

Yeah , at bad breath distances , retention is factor . But by 7yds , some flavor of * visual indexing * will give much better hits .

 

[Bullfrog]

So will a hard hike with a heavy pack after drinking too much the night before. Lungs are fragile things :-p

People need to toughen up their lungs, they baby them too much.

Smoke weed, go to covid parties, breathe through 3 layers of masks, make them suckers work for their air. They'll thank you later.

 

[Blaster229]

The Other Take away is ability to move beyond proverbial 3-7 yds , to be able to make hits on life size targets , with majority of shots , out to at least 25yds , preferably at bit more .

Since I'm specifying "most shots " , and whole life size sil , this is doable , with all but the suckiest guns like Derringers .




Here we see Mike OTDP and Lazarus staking out opposite ends of approach and philosophy . And when such debates take place , each side is usually using different semantics that muddy the conversation . Particularly in describing your own , and the other guy's ( methods of make pistol bullet hit where desired ).

I'm much closer to Mike . As rule of thumb , experienced precise shooters can speed up a lot better than spray & pray speedsters can get accurate .

Yeah , at bad breath distances , retention is factor . But by 7yds , some flavor of * visual indexing * will give much better hits .

I'm typically not taking 25 yard shots. A flight deck is about 25-20 yards to a rear gally. My training has me closing the gap since I'll be moving anyway.

 

[outrider58]

People need to toughen up their lungs, they baby them too much.

Smoke weed, go to covid parties, breathe through 3 layers of masks, make them suckers work for their air. They'll thank you later.

When I was younger and didn't have screwed up knees and feet, a cigarette after a 3-5 mile run was the best smoke of the day.

 

[Blacksmith101]

Practice far and close, fast shooting and precise shooting, strong hand and weak, and throw in a few Mozambique Drills in case a couple of solid hits to the body with no result indicates they may be wearing body armor or are so high they can't feel pain.