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[Atlantic Firearms.com]

machodoc, We are posting the listing that was provided to us by the importer of the guns , Please explain your expertise with these SKS and how you would know if they were or were not used in combat ?

 

[chevellenut71]

 

[Abulg1972]

machodoc, We are posting the listing that was provided to us by the importer of the guns , Please explain your expertise with these SKS and how you would know if they were or were not used in combat?

Actually, it is the seller who has a duty under the law to make sure that the representations it makes about the things it sells are, in fact, truthful. A seller enjoys no exemption from such requirement by virtue of the fact that the person who sold the lot to the seller claimed such and such.

Who is your importer and from what country were they imported? The latter question will probably provide the answer. Aren't they from Albania?

 

[jjones88]

Wideners has a mess of "gunsmith specials" on sale if anyone needs parts. CZ-50s, P-1s, P-64s, Star Super Bs....

Picked up one of the CZ-50's... have way too many projects right now but don't have a CZ yet.

 

[Abulg1972]

 

[Machodoc]

machodoc, We are posting the listing that was provided to us by the importer of the guns , Please explain your expertise with these SKS and how you would know if they were or were not used in combat ?

Sure ... I'll give you the short version. The bottom line of the long version is just the same.

First, as has been noted, it's YOUR duty, and not that of the importer or the buyer, to represent what YOU are selling accurately. If you were to advertise that you were selling the rifle that killed JFK, would it be the duty of us buyers to prove you wrong? Would it be sufficient for you to say, "Well, I bought it from Bubba, and that's what he told me"? Don't be ridiculous.

Next, I've studied these rifles, and their historical context, about as much as anyone in the country. There are about five of us who have really dug into these rifles to the extent possible (very scant records from China).

As for my ability to conduct research, I hold two degrees in History, and have been published by the Smithsonian Institution Press. I don't say this to blow my own horn, but you called me out on my ability to speak with expertise on this matter. That's just a taste of my background.

I can give lots of names, dates, etc., if you'd like them, but the bottom line is that it's been well established that these rifles came from Albania, where they'd been used and stored after being transferred to Enver Hoxha by the Chinese government. That transfer probably took place around 1960-62, based upon the brief window of time when the Chinese and Hoxha had a good "fellow traveler" relationship and China was providing aid to Albania.

How do we know these came out of Albania? Primarily through the trench art on many of the pieces: including Albanian family names, city names, images of Albanian landmarks, etc. I've personally tracked down and contacted the Albanian owner whose name is carved on the stock of one of my several SKS rifles.

So ... we have Chinese rifles made between 1956 and 1960, that were transferred to Albania about 1960-62 (the good relations between the two countries were short-lived). China was not in combat with anyone between 1956 and 1960, nor was Albania. Albania's dictator, Enver Hoxha, was paranoid about being invaded, had his country heavily fortified with caves and pre-fabricated concrete bunkers, conscripted a very large percentage of the male population to serve in the military and local guard groups, as well as functioning as guards for some pretty grim political prisons, but Albania was NOT in combat with anyone during those years. They did have a couple of brief political protests, and one border skirmish with the Yugos (mostly artillery fire), but the political protests amounted to little more than what went on in Baltimore recently, and the border skirmish involved a few dozen troops.

Does this answer your questions?

 

[Abulg1972]

machodoc, We are posting the listing that was provided to us by the importer of the guns , Please explain your expertise with these SKS and how you would know if they were or were not used in combat ?

Here's what we do know: (i) the importation of Type 56s from China has been illegal since March 1994; (ii) almost all (if not all) imports of Type 56s over the last several years have come from Albania. Albania has not been involved in any conflict since 1956. The likelihood that the recent imports have seen "combat" outside of instances of domestic violence is pretty low.

If any of the foregoing is wrong, I'm sure someone will correct me.

 

[chevellenut71]

 

[Machodoc]

Here's a bit of info about Sino-Albanian relationships. There's a lot more in this article:

 

[Machodoc]

Mao and Hoxha
[Edit to add a poster about Chinese/Albanian worker unity. Anything that the Albanian has look familiar?]

 

[toolness1]

I STILL BELIEVE!

*dons tinfoil hat

 

[Machodoc]

Timeline of Sino-Albanian Relations: (See also this link)

 

[Machodoc]

Chinese military assistance to Albania. This is one of the few bits of information gotten by a Chinese-language speaker who had access to records in the PRC:

 

[reverendbeer]

 

[yellowsled]

My dad has .22 Model 41 Smith thats vietnam era too.

 

[Machodoc]

O.K. Atlantic Firearms -

I've given you a thumbnail sketch of why I say that these rifles have not seen active combat. It's your turn now. What proof or even evidence do you have that they indeed have been in combat? If so, where and when?

I'm not trying to bust your chops over this. These are excellent rifles, and that should be all that needs to be said to sell them. Their own history, in spite of not having been in combat, not being Vietnam surplus, etc., should be good enough. In spite of the looks, you'd be hard-pressed to find another semi-auto of that quality for even a good bit more than what you are asking for yours.

 

[Maxsplat]

I love the education I receive from this forum.

 

[BigDaddy]

A pi$$ing contest over a $299 rifle. Heck I can walk into my LGS in Annapolis and buy one for $549 or maybe it was $599. A Norinco with the triangular bayonett and a "Chicom" with the flat one.

 

[fidelity]

I love the education I receive from this forum.

Ditto. And kudos to Machodoc in both the equanimity and thoroughness of his response.

 

[Abulg1972]

A pi$$ing contest over a $299 rifle. Heck I can walk into my LGS in Annapolis and buy one for $549 or maybe it was $599. A Norinco with the triangular bayonett and a "Chicom" with the flat one.

It's not a pissing contest. There is a lot of BS that gets peddled in this industry, particularly when it comes to C&R guns. Sellers need to be held accountable when they know, or should know, that the things they say in an attempt to sell a gun are bunk, just like any other seller of goods, consumer (which these are) or not. The funny thing is that most collectors know what is and isn't reality and statements like these frequently chase off a sale.

A Norinco SKS ain't the same thing as a Type 56 milsurp. It's not C&R and it's not milsurp.