If you had a choice of Laser sight.....

[alucard0822]

Why would you go to jail if you shot a burgler in your home? All you have to do is prove that you were afraid for your life and make sure you shoot him "in" your home and not outside of it! I think there has been two cases in HarCo in the last 20 years where the homeowner killed the "Burgler" and one case went to trial and was dismissed the other the DA did not press charges...

Yup, been covered several times before, MD is a de facto stand your ground/castle doctrine state as far as criminal charges go, civil protection is not as great. If the shoot is "good" then it doesn't matter if you used a laser, or just a lucky shot, decked out AR or a 500S&W wheelgun. The DA usually huffs and puffs about charging, but seldom does, or drops them soon after pressing them, the MSP also tries to discourage self defense for no good reason, but their opinions on what you should do when robbed are general guidelines intended for the unenlightened masses, and are not neccisarily law. You of course have learned better than throwing yourself at the mercy of a criminal in your own home though.

The thing to keep in mind with a laser is that it is intended to only give you a combat accurate shot from a few feet away, so it's usefulness at the range is limited to combat shooting, and not target practice. It can also work as a crutch for poor or undeveloped sight alignment skills, and actually set you back as far as actual skill development. If you are using it as a compliment to sight alignment and point shooting skills, it can be a big help to get shots off faster, and can also give a good point of reference when practicing low holds and close quarters retension skills. There is also the issue of batteries, the idea being that when you need it to work, the batteries will usually be dead, so building solid skills without relying on the laser is a must. The CTC grips are the best way to go for all around use, but you have to be aware where your hands are on the grip to avoid blocking the beam, this is especially important for lefties, or those using them on revolvers. The TLRII is a big unit, and the toggle switch requires a lot of practice to get farmiliar with in a stressful situation, but as an all in one unit it is sturdy, and the weight can help keep the muzzle down. The guide rod lasermax gets dirty and oily very easily due to its location, and will get covered in powder fouling at the range, but places the beam the closest to the axis of the bore, and like the CTC grips, will work in standard holsters.

 

[MauiWowie]

I was being a little sarcastic, but I do honestly believe that the MD judicial system would try and have my ass in jail. Just ask the cops what your supposed to do while getting robbed....comply and give them all you have...

If someone is in my home and he is anywhere near my wife or kids someone is going to die and I just hope and pray it's not me!!!

 

[MauiWowie]

Yup, been covered several times before, MD is a de facto stand your ground/castle doctrine state as far as criminal charges go, civil protection is not as great. If the shoot is "good" then it doesn't matter if you used a laser, or just a lucky shot, decked out AR or a 500S&W wheelgun. The DA usually huffs and puffs about charging, but seldom does, or drops them soon after pressing them, the MSP also tries to discourage self defense for no good reason, but their opinions on what you should do when robbed are general guidelines intended for the unenlightened masses. You of course have learned better than throwing yourself at the mercy of a criminal in your own home though.

The thing to keep in mind with a laser is that it is intended to only give you a combat accurate shot from a few feet away, so it's usefulness at the range is limited to combat shooting, and not target practice. It can also work as a crutch for poor or undeveloped sight alignment skills, and actually set you back as far as actual skill development. If you are using it as a compliment to sight alignment and point shooting skills, it can be a big help to get shots off faster, and can also give a good point of reference when practicing low holds and close quarters retension skills. There is also the issue of batteries, the idea being that when you need it to work, the batteries will usually be dead, so building solid skills without relying on the laser is a must. The CTC grips are the best way to go for all around use, but you have to be aware where your hands are on the grip to avoid blocking the beam, this is especially important for lefties, or those using them on revolvers. The TLRII is a big unit, and the toggle switch requires a lot of practice to get farmiliar with in a stressful situation, but as an all in one unit it is sturdy, and the weight can help keep the muzzle down. The guide rod lasermax gets dirty and oily very easily due to its location, and will get covered in powder fouling at the range, but places the beam the closest to the axis of the bore, and like the CTC grips, will work in standard holsters.

Man.... now I don't want a laser... thanks for raining on my parade!

 

[alucard0822]

Man.... now I don't want a laser... thanks for raining on my parade!

Hey, at least they still look cool

With good training and a solid technique lasers can help, but the point was that they do have limitations, and their use should be to compliment skills instead of replacing them, which is a problem some folks I have worked with made. But thats just me, I'm kinda old fashioned when it comes to tac rail ornaments on my gear, I still practice the X and the T methods for using a flashlight in my weak hand instead of using a rail light at all, and lazers, whoa, I'm still getting used to night sights and plastic guns

 

[smores]

I used a TLR-2 (laser) once at the range. Man it makes you look like you've got the shakiest hands out there! It tightened up my groups but it was my first time firing a .40 S&W handgun so I was still a little flinchy. Now I shoot well with that gun with iron sights only.

My bedside gun (Steyr M40-A1) wears a TLR-2.

I am horribly nearsided. I can't read a book without my glasses farther than about 8" from my face. If something goes bump in the night I can see with the light, and even clearly see the red dot at the POI in my bedroom, and anywhere in the house for that matter sans glasses. Of course, if I had time I'd put them on but if I was woken up by someone IN my room or my glasses got knocked off/destroyed I can still aim my pistol. Using the sights would end with me being punched in the cheek with the slide, so this is the only option I use for night-time Home Defense.

Hope my $.02 helps!

 

[spr3t]

if tacticool is what you need, then the viridian green laser x5l laser/light combo is the cat's pajamas. it's the bee's knees.

see this link http://www.viridiangreenlaser.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=48

although it's kind of pricey for my tastes, i'm personally going to purchase the sig stl-900l in order to compliment my sig p226r.

 

[VNVGUNNER]

On my house 9mm

 

[wlc]

On my house 9mm
View attachment 4924

The problem I have with that, is the laser is so far below the barrel - if the target is a foot or 2 in front of or behind where the laser is sighted, it's going to be inaccurate

 

[Celtic159]

Good stuff here. I hadn't thought about using a laser for low hold training. I still don't care for them due to the parallax issue.

X- and T-holds with a flashlight are great, but when something goes bump in the night, I'd rather grab a gun with a light attached to it than a gun and a light. I'd also rather be aiming with two hands when I'm coming out of a dead sleep.

YMMV.

 

[alucard0822]

The problem I have with that, is the laser is so far below the barrel - if the target is a foot or 2 in front of or behind where the laser is sighted, it's going to be inaccurate

The one thing that really doesn't matter much is the lasers placement relative to the barrel, it should be adjusted to be parralel to the bore line. Basically if the light is 3" under the barrel, adjust it so at 10ft it is shooting 3" high relative to the laser, it is not intended for precision shooting, only to help you get a combat accurate shot (withing 10" at 20ft) as fast as possible.

Good stuff here. I hadn't thought about using a laser for low hold training. I still don't care for them due to the parallax issue.

X- and T-holds with a flashlight are great, but when something goes bump in the night, I'd rather grab a gun with a light attached to it than a gun and a light. I'd also rather be aiming with two hands when I'm coming out of a dead sleep.

YMMV.

I agree, I still practice the flashlight holds mostly because I CC, and if I need to draw, and it is dark, I have a flashlight on my belt to help. Another benefit to having the light separate, is I dont have to freak out everyone as I am looking for my keys that I just dropped in a dark, but buisy Wal-mart parking lot, and don't have a flashlight digging into my ass all the time that the pistol is holstered IWB. I use the same technique at home too, as I carry the same way from when I get dressed in the morning, till when I go to bed at night. However for HD if I am suddenly woken up, I have motion lights in the house to help see who is where in addition to the dog and alarm, so a flashlight is not needed as much. I have an AK for the "bedside gun" role with a pressure sensitive flashlight mounted just in case I need it, and 30 rounds of 7.62X39 ready to meet just about any threat that can fit through the door.

 

[Celtic159]

Ahh, see I can't carry here in the PRM, so that's not an issue. There's no way I'd consider an attached tactical light for a carry weapon.

 

[squirrels]

Only actually seen the Crimson Trace handgrip on the SiG. While it's a neat concept, the parallax bugs me. You can adjust it, but you have horizontal parallax as well as vertical because of where the laser is located. At least a LaserMax would be under the barrel, so you would have only vertical parallax.

I didn't like a laser at all. It felt kind of distracting. I personally would rather use the sights. Besides, if you ever HAVE to use it, you're going to naturally point and shoot. May as well learn how to do that instead of relying on gadgets.

 

[Old Salty Dog]

My thoughts are for my bride who may need to defend herself some night when I'm on the road. She is learning how to shoot, but it will be some time before she becomes really proficient due to lack of time to get her to the range for practice. Seems that when really stressed out seeing that dot on a BG would be really reassuring to her if she needed it.
From all that I have read, for HD, I think a laser would be more helpful than not.

 

[smores]

The problem I have with that, is the laser is so far below the barrel - if the target is a foot or 2 in front of or behind where the laser is sighted, it's going to be inaccurate

I don't know about your house, but my house is maybe 20' max from wall to wall at its most open point (townhouse). I have it sighted for about 15'. If I am aiming for center mass and miss by 2-3" up or down I'm still hitting center mass.

Unless you live in a mansion and are shooting more than 25' or so, I don't see it being an issue.

I'm certainly not going to try to shoot a BG's eye out or clip his fingernails. For hitting center-mass inside a reasonable sized home I think these things are great options. Light for target ID, laser for shot placement when waking out of a dead sleep or not wearing glasses/contacts.

I also agree that I don't want to grab a gun AND a light. Try grabbing both while laying down in bed. The way my room is set up I'll be shooting from my bed as I don't have a door or anything between me and the stairway, it's a clear shot so it's the most "cover & concealment" I have. No room to retreat or barricade. I want to reach for one object that is going to help me out in every way possible and a pistol with a light/laser attached fits the bill for me!

 

[MauiWowie]

Ok I'm still a noob can someone explain "parallax"????

 

[Celtic159]

Simply put, the bullet and the laser are originating from two different places. You will have to adjust the laser so that the bullet and the beam converge at a fixed point (say 15'). You've created a triangle defined by the muzzle, the laser emitter, and to point of convergence. If you are shooting at anything closer than 15', the bullet will not impact at the point of the beam. For all intents and purposes in a home defense situation, this isn't an issue since the distances are so close, however if your target is farther away than 15', your shot is going to go high (assuming that the emitter is below the barrel).

While I can certainly see the benefit for someone who doesn't shoot a lot, I think having a laser is a crutch which de-emphasizes proper sight training. And you're screwed if the battery dies.

Edited to add- I'm not a fan of untrained people using firearms for home defense anyway, given the chance to accidentally shoot a loved one. What concerns me is what's behind my target. If I were to take a shot from my nightstand, my daughter's bed is the backstop. From the end of my bed (facing the bedroom door), it's my stepson's bed. I shoot quite a bit and consider myself to be a better-than-average shooter, and there's no way I'd keep a gun at the bedside for those two reasons. If the dogs alert me to an issue in the middle of the night, I'm grabbing something that goes boom, my wife's calling 911, I'm corralling the family in a closet behind me, and we're waiting for the cavalry to show up.

 

[wlc]

If you have ever shot with a laser, you realize the benefits.
You can get off 5 shots much quicker and more accurate then using the sites.

 

[Celtic159]

I don't disagree with that, as long as you're shooting at the zeroed range. And as long as your batteries aren't dead.

 

[alucard0822]

The fact that the laser is not directly concentric with the bore line is a non-issue with most handguns AND rifles. Similar to setting a "battle 0", you are best off adjusting a laser for a handgun parrallel to the bore, or slightly divergent if the laser is belod the bore line, if that is the case, the path of the bullet will cross the laser between 20-30 yards, and be + or - about 4" out to at least 50 yards, for CTC grips, don't correct the inch or two that POI will be off left or right, and it will ONLY be an inch or two off in windage as far as you can shoot it. In the case of rifles it depends on where the lazer is mounted, on an AR, if it is 2" above the barrel, 0ing at 25yds will give you + or - 6" out to about 300 yards, if it is an inch below the barrel, sight it in to shoot 3" high at 25 yards, if it is mounted 2" off center to the left, set it to hit 3" high, and 2" to the right. The laser is not for precision shooting, that is what sights are for, in most cases, being off + or - a few inches within the effective range will serve it's purpose. I have a couple lasers, and have trained with them, to me, it makes almost no difference compared to just using the sights and point shooting techniques in a pistol, and makes absolutely no difference in a carbine, and can actually be a hinderence if using an EOtech or Aimpoint where you see two red dots, and don't know which is the laser, and which is the sight.

 

[Celtic159]

Different strokes, I guess. My gut says that you will be a better shooter on any firearm if you properly and consistently train to use the sights.

That said, I have an EOtech waiting to go on my AR.