I can't believe how expensive laser and/or recoil enable training guns are.

[Garet Jax]

I have looked at many, many solutions. I have looked at taking airsoft/paintball guns and converting them to a laser enabled training gun. I have looked at solutions like SIRT, solutions like coolfiretrainer, solutions like the glock trigger reset + magic bullet and everything in between.

I just can't find anything cheaper than like $200 (which doesn't solve most needs). Most are > $350 per gun. Most solutions don't meet every need, they either don't have a laser, don't have recoil, don't have the ability to tap/rack to clear malfunctions.

The cheapest that I can find is SIRT, but they don't have a rackable slide so there is no ability to practice mag changes and malfunctions.

One of the best solutions is here, but they are > $400 per gun and there isn't a lot of information on them so I have no idea if there are known issues or longevity problems.

I want to be able to put one of these guns in every student's hands for all types of training so they spend hours doing drills and not hours listening to a trainer.

 

[Blaster229]

You're looking to replicate exactly live fire on the range, indoor, and that's not going to happen.
The one thing, and biggest hurdle for new shooters is real recoil. There's no training aid for that.
Taking up time to fill a ridiculous amount of 16 hours of WC permit class to me isn't worth the cost of any laser training aids.

If it's just say, some 4 to 6 hour willy nilly class, students are best served handling/ learning to draw with their own clear and safe pistols.
After all, that's what they shoot at the range.
You should look into maybe expanding what you're teaching in the class other than marksmanship. If your training and experience can carry different subjects.

 

[ironpony]

"students are best served handling/ learning to draw with their own clear and safe pistols." - Blaster.

I've had two classes using some type of simunition round, it expelled an aluminum plug looking thing, I have no interest in it. Seemed fake, shots did not land where I thought they should and my mind shifted out of "real life" to some type of gimmicky bs thing.

Just a thought - The muscle memory idea goes for the mind as well.

Good luck OP, I like that you are working on improving the quality of your teaching!! Keep the ideas and improvements coming, I'm out on the same streets as your students so yeah, good thought process. Personally I am trying to prepare my niece (22 yrs old) for the arrival of her permit/reality.

 

[MaxVO2]

I have looked at many, many solutions. I have looked at taking airsoft/paintball guns and converting them to a laser enabled training gun. I have looked at solutions like SIRT, solutions like coolfiretrainer, solutions like the glock trigger reset + magic bullet and everything in between.

I just can't find anything cheaper than like $200 (which doesn't solve most needs). Most are > $350 per gun. Most solutions don't meet every need, they either don't have a laser, don't have recoil, don't have the ability to tap/rack to clear malfunctions.

The cheapest that I can find is SIRT, but they don't have a rackable slide so there is no ability to practice mag changes and malfunctions.

One of the best solutions is here, but they are > $400 per gun and there isn't a lot of information on them so I have no idea if there are known issues or longevity problems.

I want to be able to put one of these guns in every student's hands for all types of training so they spend hours doing drills and not hours listening to a trainer.

******Good quality that meets your needs, and can withstand significant use in a commercial environment will not be cheap. The guns would need to be serviceable and have a modular system with critical parts like the laser, trigger, and other parts be replaceable. A lot of R&D went into making the products on LATT's (Laser Ammo Training Tech). Those replicas cost almost as much (sometimes more) as the real thing because they are meant to imitate the real thing for training purposes.

There are other systems out there that adapt to a real firearm, replace the trigger, add a laser system, or shoot "safer" frangible or marking ammunition, but they have their limitations as well.

There are several trainers who sell/use this system, and do some of the beta testing as new products come out. A pic below of several training places that use these products as part of their business model - they train mostly private security though versus the general public. Contact them, and take one of their classes if you can, or order a couple of the products from the company and see how they work out for you.

I've handled and fired a few of their products - they work well for what they are. It's a tool, and no substitute for the real thing.

That being said, *nothing* will replace real live fire practice and a variety of drills with a good instructor. We sometimes (I'm a W&C instructor as well as teach NRA classes, etc..) use the students cleared and safe pistols for our draw, FTF, and other drills, from their own holsters as it is more realistic and probably more practical insofar as being relevant to their situations and equipment choices. We use SIRT pistols sometimes, with reactive targets, depending upon the class, and they have their advantages and disadvantages.

Order a gun or two, and see how they work out - really depends on your business model. Personally, I prefer using safe and cleared real guns, but can see the value of products like the LATT system and others in certain situations and for certain populations/classes.

Good luck.

 

[Blaster229]

"students are best served handling/ learning to draw with their own clear and safe pistols." - Blaster.

I've had two classes using some type of simunition round, it expelled an aluminum plug looking thing, I have no interest in it. Seemed fake, shots did not land where I thought they should and my mind shifted out of "real life" to some type of gimmicky bs thing.

Just a thought - The muscle memory idea goes for the mind as well.

Good luck OP, I like that you are working on improving the quality of your teaching!! Keep the ideas and improvements coming, I'm out on the same streets as your students so yeah, good thought process. Personally I am trying to prepare my niece (22 yrs old) for the arrival of her permit/reality.

SIMS rounds are not meant to be used for marksmanship training. They are meant for force on force training. Shooting at each other. Learning to get hit to stay in the fight.
Ridiculously expensive.
The don't offer muzzle flip, but you get recoil. That's about it.
Anyone who uses it for indoor marksmanship training is stupid.
I know fortress training used it for their WC quals. I'm ok with that just out of the convenience factor with the number of students they were herding through each class. 40-50 people at a range would be ridiculous.

 

[Garet Jax]

You're looking to replicate exactly live fire on the range, indoor, and that's not going to happen.

This is exactly right. Coolfiretrainer comes the closest in my opinion because you get to use your own gun and every trigger press cycles the slide and triggers a laser. The problem is that their system is over $500 each and you need the gun. This means if I want one for each student in a class it will cost me thousands even for a small class.

The one thing, and biggest hurdle for new shooters is real recoil. There's no training aid for that.

My solution for that is a Taurus TX22 Competition SCR. It is compensated and a 22LR so the recoil is next to nothing. I can't force a student to shoot my gun, but if I can convince them, they will be introduced to shooting with a gun that has little or no recoil. From there I can build up to a non compensated 22, then 9mm.

Taking up time to fill a ridiculous amount of 16 hours of WC permit class to me isn't worth the cost of any laser training aids.

I am trying to see it differently. I have 16 hours with these folks to try and get them to be competent with guns so they can continue to learn safely on their own.

If it's just say, some 4 to 6 hour willy nilly class, students are best served handling/ learning to draw with their own clear and safe pistols.
After all, that's what they shoot at the range.
You should look into maybe expanding what you're teaching in the class other than marksmanship. If your training and experience can carry different subjects.

The content isn't the issue. The issue is making the course as valuable as possible to the student so they leave with at least what they need to be safe.