How do dealers get around the 30 day NICS transfer requirement

[Ab_Normal]

...when the state is taking longer than 30 days to complete the 77r?

Are they just having the purchaser fill out the 4473 after the 77r comes back and putting the same certification date in section A and recertification date in section c?

The 4473 states: "For purposes of this form, contacts to NICS include contacts to State agencies designated to conduct NICS checks for the Federal Government."

 

[DaemonAssassin]

I think it has to do with MSP being the POC for NICS, in regards to regulated firearms. Even though it may take 30+ days to get the 77R back from MSP, the actual turn around time from when MSP gets the NICS number may in fact only be 7 days.

Don't take the above information as fact, but it is the best I can figure with how convoluted the relationship between MSP and NICS is at any given time.

Add: IIRC, MSP gets the 77R (all parts) and the 4473. The ATF never sees/gets the 4473 as MSP is the single POC for NICS, until after the NICS check has been done.

 

[swinokur]

My understanding is only the FFL retains the 4473.

Am I wrong?

 

[Gbh]

My understanding is only the FFL retains the 4473.

Am I wrong?

The purchaser does not get a copy of the 4473

 

[DaemonAssassin]

My understanding is only the FFL retains the 4473.

Am I wrong?

AFAIK the FFL does keep the 4473 for their records, but only after the transaction has been completed (approved, not approved or hold) and the firearm is picked up by the purchaser. Where I am not sure is if the 4473 gets sent to MSP as part of the BG check, even though all of the info on the 4473 is also on the 77R.

 

[swinokur]

IIRC the FFL retains the 4473 until the 77R comes back from MSP. The 4473 does not go to MSP as it's a Federal form

correct me if it's wrong

 

[kalister1]

IMHO; The MSP do not even touch your app for 30 days.When they do touch it they process it quickly and send it on. So no NICS check gets performed until after that 30 days.

 

[midcountyg]

4473 is for Federal use only, and has nothing to do with MSP. The 30 days is for the NICS check, which is what we are waiting for from MSP. When they get the check, 30-40 days after forms are sent in, it is passed on to the dealer. The 30 day clock starts when the Nics check results are given, not when you fill out form.

 

[DaemonAssassin]

4473 is for Federal use only, and has nothing to do with MSP. The 30 days is for the NICS check, which is what we are waiting for from MSP. When they get the check, 30-40 days after forms are sent in, it is passed on to the dealer. The 30 day clock starts when the Nics check results are given, not when you fill out form.

Is it safe to assume that the NICS check/NTN could be less than 96 hours old by the time you are able to pick up a firearm, given the current state of MSP processing apps? Or would MSP hold the NICS check/NTN for "X" days to ensure compliance with the 7 day law?

 

[Ab_Normal]

4473 is for Federal use only, and has nothing to do with MSP. The 30 days is for the NICS check, which is what we are waiting for from MSP. When they get the check, 30-40 days after forms are sent in, it is passed on to the dealer. The 30 day clock starts when the Nics check results are given, not when you fill out form.

So what date does the purchaser put on section A when they sign it? The date they fill out the form or the date you get the NTN?

 

[IndispensableDestiny]

So what date does the purchaser put on section A when they sign it? The date they fill out the form or the date you get the NTN?

The date they fill out the form. The signature certifies that the questions are answered truthfully.

You are thinking too hard. If a 77r is involved, the dealer does not do the NICS check. The MSP does. So the 30 day transfer period does not come into play (unless the MSP takes 30 days to get the NOT DISAPPROVED back to the dealer, ugh).

The 7 day waiting period is a state requirement, not Federal. It has nothing to do when the NTN was issued.

This is why dealers can't release a gun until MSP comes back with NOT DISAPPROVED. They don't have the NTN to put on the 4473, which is a Federal requirement. They may be in compliance with state law after 7 days, but without the NTN, not with the Federal law.

So stop whining about the dealers not releasing guns after 7 days.

 

[2AHokie]

The date they fill out the form. The signature certifies that the questions are answered truthfully.

You are thinking too hard. If a 77r is involved, the dealer does not do the NICS check. The MSP does. So the 30 day transfer period does not come into play (unless the MSP takes 30 days to get the NOT DISAPPROVED back to the dealer, ugh).

Except that contacts to states which act as the POC count as contact with NICS. It's in the very first post in this thread and it's in the form 4473 instructions (pages 5 and 6 of the 4473 document on the ATF website).

So stop whining about the dealers not releasing guns after 7 days.

Not going to happen. There is a wrong being committed on us here in MD. This delay is an abuse of our civil rights. That doesn't mean I'm taking aim at dealers, but the current situation is simply not acceptable. VA is a POC state too. They don't wait like we do, ever, so there's no reason things can't be improved.

 

[Ab_Normal]

The date they fill out the form. The signature certifies that the questions are answered truthfully.

You are thinking too hard. If a 77r is involved, the dealer does not do the NICS check. The MSP does. So the 30 day transfer period does not come into play (unless the MSP takes 30 days to get the NOT DISAPPROVED back to the dealer, ugh).

The 7 day waiting period is a state requirement, not Federal. It has nothing to do when the NTN was issued.

This is why dealers can't release a gun until MSP comes back with NOT DISAPPROVED. They don't have the NTN to put on the 4473, which is a Federal requirement. They may be in compliance with state law after 7 days, but without the NTN, not with the Federal law.

So stop whining about the dealers not releasing guns after 7 days.

I'll state it again: I don't have any firearms I am waiting on.

My concern is that if a dealer is putting the date they sent the info to the MSP in #21a, which counts as initiating the NICS contact as specified in the directions on the form (this date should match the date on the 77r), and the date they put in #36 is more than 30 days then they would be in violation of the law that requires the transfer to occur within 30 days of contacting NICS (or MSP since they are the POC) without doing another NICS check. Then the process would have to start over by sending another 77r to the MSP. And so on and so forth.

Could this be a sinister plan to put all FFL's out of business in Md. for violating federal law?

 

[rob-cubed]

There is no sinister plan. But if you want to look for a conspiracy theory: the MSP was unprepared and likely delayed staffing up because of budget issues... and perhaps the person holding the purse strings received a disincentive from making it happen any faster.

This "8 days for FFLs" question has been asked multiple times in the past few weeks, and not a single FFL has agreed that it would be feasibly legal, much less a wise business practice. And every single one of them wants to get rid of 30+ days of sold inventory stacked in corners.

I think this horse needs a rest.

 

[Ab_Normal]

There is no sinister plan. But if you want to look for a conspiracy theory: the MSP was unprepared and likely delayed staffing up because of budget issues... and perhaps the person holding the purse strings received a disincentive from making it happen any faster.

This "8 days for FFLs" question has been asked multiple times in the past few weeks, and not a single FFL has agreed that it would be feasibly legal, much less a wise business practice. And every single one of them wants to get rid of 30+ days of sold inventory stacked in corners.

I think this horse needs a rest.

Yes the 7 day thing has been thoroughly covered but I am not asking about the legality of transferring a regulated firearm after 7 days, I am asking about how dealers are transferring a regulated firearm after 30 days without doing another NICS check as required by law.

The dealers really are in a bind these days.

How many will be upset when the atf confiscates their firearms that were tranferred without a valid NICS check?

 

[rob-cubed]

Gotcha.

It's my understanding that the NICs check isn't happening until the very end of the 30+ day process. So it doesn't violate Fed law.

The MSP is basically sitting on reams of submitted forms, waiting to review them, just like the BATFE with their 6-month wait on NFA stuff. The actual process doesn't take any longer than it ever did, aside from the logjam before getting a form reviewed.

 

[Ab_Normal]

Gotcha.

It's my understanding that the NICs check isn't happening until the very end of the 30+ day process. So it doesn't violate Fed law.

The MSP is basically sitting on reams of submitted forms, waiting to review them, just like the BATFE with their 6-month wait on NFA stuff. The actual process doesn't take any longer than it ever did, aside from the logjam before getting a form reviewed.

I understand that. But the feds consider the day the background check was submitted to the state as the start of the 30 day period. I don't see how to get around putting the actual dates without committing fraud on either the state form or the federal form.

Maybe someone who has had a recent transfer can chime in on the order the forms were filled out and how they are making the dates work with the 30+ day waits.

Maybe there is a legal way to do it and not violate state OR federal law but I don't see it.

The difference with the NFA stuff is that there is no set time frame codified in the law.

 

[rob-cubed]

The firearm definitely has to be transferred within 30 days of the NICs call. But I don't recall a regulation that puts a time limit between completion/dating the 4473 and when the NICs call actually happens. It's a serious anomaly that the Feds never really considered happening with any regularity.

Can you point to language that refers to the clock starting as soon as the 4473 is filled in? Not trying to beat you up over this, I would honestly like to see it in writing.

EDIT: Here's the clearest and most recent citation I can find. It is a little ambiguous in terms of "contact" but seems pretty clear that the date recorded is the actual NICs call, not the date paperwork was submitted to the POC:
http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2011/05/050511-nicsopenletter-18-11.html

The FFLs is required to record the initial response received from NICS or the appropriate State agency in a Point of Contact (POC) State on the ATF Form 4473, Firearms Transaction Record. At the time NICS or the appropriate State agency is contacted, the FFL must record in question 21a-c the date of contact, the NICS (or State) transaction number, and the initial response provided by NICS or the appropriate State agency.​

 

[A1Uni]

I'll state it again: I don't have any firearms I am waiting on.

My concern is that if a dealer is putting the date they sent the info to the MSP in #21a, which counts as initiating the NICS contact as specified in the directions on the form (this date should match the date on the 77r), and the date they put in #36 is more than 30 days then they would be in violation of the law that requires the transfer to occur within 30 days of contacting NICS (or MSP since they are the POC) without doing another NICS check. Then the process would have to start over by sending another 77r to the MSP. And so on and so forth.

Could this be a sinister plan to put all FFL's out of business in Md. for violating federal law?

That box does not get filled in until the "not disapproved" comes back to the FFL because MSP, are the ones submitting the data. The return faxes have the date transmitted written in for the FFL.

The FFL gets them back within a few days of when they were run, even these days.

 

[Ab_Normal]

The firearm definitely has to be transferred within 30 days of the NICs call. But I don't recall a regulation that puts a time limit between completion/dating the 4473 and when the NICs call actually happens. It's a serious anomaly that the Feds never really considered happening with any regularity.

Can you point to language that refers to the clock starting as soon as the 4473 is filled in? Not trying to beat you up over this, I would honestly like to see it in writing.

EDIT: Here's the clearest and most recent citation I can find. It is a little ambiguous in terms of "contact" but seems pretty clear that the date recorded is the actual NICs call, not the date paperwork was submitted to the POC:
http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2011/05/050511-nicsopenletter-18-11.html

The FFLs is required to record the initial response received from NICS or the appropriate State agency in a Point of Contact (POC) State on the ATF Form 4473, Firearms Transaction Record. At the time NICS or the appropriate State agency is contacted, the FFL must record in question 21a-c the date of contact, the NICS (or State) transaction number, and the initial response provided by NICS or the appropriate State agency.​

I quoted the language in post#1 and 2AHokie listed where the info could be found on the 4473.