How CZ Lost My Respect

[Racer Doug14]

Unless he got his frame cerakoted, that may have been a CZ Custom job? They did a run of FDE/Black Shadow 2's last year that they tuned and tweaked. I'll bet it was a nice shooter.

It needed better people pulling the trigger. I missed an opportunity.

 

[Occam]

Sounds exactly like what's going on in the background, yet, CZ-USA should ultimately be held accountable to the 200 or so schmucks who bought that P-01 thinking it was a stainless steel pistol.

If they want to do the right thing, they should offer full refunds to any owner who desires it and if they don't, if they try to spin it as something not their fault, I hope it comes back to bite them in the ass in a class action lawsuit that features the word 'fraud' prominently.

And this is exactly why lawyers for CZ would be telling the CZ-US people to not say a WORD until they can properly put this millstone around the neck of whichever subordinate organization f-ed this up so spectacularly. Yeah, that $100k or two might be easier to just swallow, but they'd much rather get that pound of flesh out of the distributor that did this nonsense than take it out of their tight importing margins and not send a significant enough signal to the rest of their distribution ecosystem that stunts like this won't pay.

It takes a long time to get all parties to sign something that clearly establishes where the liability costs (in cash, AND in statements impacting reputations) will lie, so they can move on. In the meantime, the moratorium on CZ having anything clear to say about it is probably agonizing for everyone in that organization. They need to hang the culprit out to dry, but their leverage and the consequences involved could be seriously altered by speaking too soon. Sucks to be them, because they trusted somebody to be a downstream part of their organization, and they got betrayed ... and can't just talk about it off the cuff until, no doubt, a tank of sharks is done getting signatures and checks cashed and agreements voided.

This is one of the reasons it's so hard to become a distributor and/or retailer for certain kinds of products. It's because the manufacturers sometimes get badly burned by lending their reputation to people they can only control by denying them future access to inventory. I've been right in the middle of some of those pissing contests, and they go exactly like how this feels. Give CZ's lawyers a chance to wrap up the spanking that's going on, and all will become clear, however frustrating it is for now. Yes, I hope they (CZ US) takes one for the team and makes people whole for what appears to be the behavior of this distributor.

 

[beretta_maven]

Without comment:

Really like the look. Is that a custom finish, and if so, by whom?

 

[NateIU10]

Further research has yielded the following:

The 150-200 P-01's that were hard chromed, polished, roll-marked with an auto-pencil and sold as 'stainless steel' were done by a distributor called, (Bill) Hicks, Inc. (800-633-5634, info@hicks.com) and if I had one that the finish was peeling-off of, I'd contact them directly about it since CZ-USA refuses to even acknowledge these pistols or their complicity in the fraud.

https://www.hicksinc.com/

Truly pathetic, considering they put them in factory-produced CZ plastic cases and issued a non-catalogued SKU # for them.

I was always under the impression that Hicks Inc. and Bill Hicks Company were two different companies (with Hicks Inc. being in Alabama and Bill Hicks Co. being in MN).

 

[Bob A]

Really like the look. Is that a custom finish, and if so, by whom?

Yeah, thanks; two-tone ceracote I believe. Dunno who did it. I got it for the looks and ergo. CZ guns fit me like a glove. CZ75 P01 would be my carry gun, if MD would allow. The one you refer to is sort of a BBQ piece.

 

[Czechnologist]

And this is exactly why lawyers for CZ would be telling the CZ-US people to not say a WORD until they can properly put this millstone around the neck of whichever subordinate organization f-ed this up so spectacularly. Yeah, that $100k or two might be easier to just swallow, but they'd much rather get that pound of flesh out of the distributor that did this nonsense than take it out of their tight importing margins and not send a significant enough signal to the rest of their distribution ecosystem that stunts like this won't pay.

It takes a long time to get all parties to sign something that clearly establishes where the liability costs (in cash, AND in statements impacting reputations) will lie, so they can move on. In the meantime, the moratorium on CZ having anything clear to say about it is probably agonizing for everyone in that organization. They need to hang the culprit out to dry, but their leverage and the consequences involved could be seriously altered by speaking too soon. Sucks to be them, because they trusted somebody to be a downstream part of their organization, and they got betrayed ... and can't just talk about it off the cuff until, no doubt, a tank of sharks is done getting signatures and checks cashed and agreements voided.

This is one of the reasons it's so hard to become a distributor and/or retailer for certain kinds of products. It's because the manufacturers sometimes get badly burned by lending their reputation to people they can only control by denying them future access to inventory. I've been right in the middle of some of those pissing contests, and they go exactly like how this feels. Give CZ's lawyers a chance to wrap up the spanking that's going on, and all will become clear, however frustrating it is for now. Yes, I hope they (CZ US) takes one for the team and makes people whole for what appears to be the behavior of this distributor.

The resolution and how CZ-USA handles the PR is going to be interesting. I've heard both good and bad things about CZ-USA customer service but have never had to use them for anything myself. They have to be under a lot of pressure by the mothership in Uhersky Brod to get this wrapped-up as quietly and efficiently as possible. I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt but considering the outlandishness of the situation, that's hard for me to do. This type of thing is inexcusable, IMHO.

I'm curious, are there any other gun manufacturers out there who claimed their products were made from one thing but actually made from something else?

 

[Occam]

I'm curious, are there any other gun manufacturers out there who claimed their products were made from one thing but actually made from something else?

Did CZ actually make that claim? Or was it one (formerly) trusted distributor requesting a SKU under what amount to false pretenses? I'm sure all the who-knew-what-when skuttlebutt will eventually surface, but it sure sounds like a mess created by a middleman with at least one mad case of lapsed judgement/ethics that CZ-USA now gets to mop up.

I don't know about any particular firearm manufacturers, but YES I've definitely been witness to domestic distributors causing mayhem through the introduction of grey market, counterfeit, or unauthorized custom/bundled products to the domestic market, and the (overseas) brand/manufacturer having to do a ton of logistical, PR, contractual, legal, tax, and customs cleanup for months and years afterwards. Happens in the photo/video, IT, music, and other markets all too often. Only takes one toxic man in the middle of the distribution food chain to poison it for everybody for a long time afterwards, and the manufacturer - absent a time machine - can't do anything but wade into the legally, publicity-wise, and dealer-relations-wise swamp after the fact to try to fix it. And in the meantime, the social media rumor mill completely distorts the whole mess.

 

[davsco]

i don't know jack about cz, but as far as distributors modifying/improving/etc factory guns, some are doing that with glocks, such as with the fully cerakoted glocks (to include frames).

 

[Czechnologist]

Did CZ actually make that claim? Or was it one (formerly) trusted distributor requesting a SKU under what amount to false pretenses? I'm sure all the who-knew-what-when skuttlebutt will eventually surface, but it sure sounds like a mess created by a middleman with at least one mad case of lapsed judgement/ethics that CZ-USA now gets to mop up.

I don't know about any particular firearm manufacturers, but YES I've definitely been witness to domestic distributors causing mayhem through the introduction of grey market, counterfeit, or unauthorized custom/bundled products to the domestic market, and the (overseas) brand/manufacturer having to do a ton of logistical, PR, contractual, legal, tax, and customs cleanup for months and years afterwards. Happens in the photo/video, IT, music, and other markets all too often. Only takes one toxic man in the middle of the distribution food chain to poison it for everybody for a long time afterwards, and the manufacturer - absent a time machine - can't do anything but wade into the legally, publicity-wise, and dealer-relations-wise swamp after the fact to try to fix it. And in the meantime, the social media rumor mill completely distorts the whole mess.

Well, if I didn't know any better, I'd think they did since the pistol was sold in one of their plastic cases with a CZ-USA sticker, product description and SKU # on it. That's what leads me to believe they were complicit in the deception. Unfortunately, I also don't see the mothership (CZ-UB) going out of its way to assure their American market that this wasn't a screw-up on its part but, then, I never had the impression that CZ-UB gave a big flying-crap about the USA, particularly when you consider that the bulk of their products are available in Europe months and sometimes years before they make it over here. Could this be the a sign that CZ is becoming more HK/Colt-like(?), in that, if you're not a government agency with big $ to spend, you can pretty much go find a corner and fvck yourself into-it? I hope not. We already have enough gun companies with that attitude towards civilian buyers. We don't need another and we definitely don't need another that whores-out its products to turn a quick profit by lying to consumers.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I think you're pretty damn close to the reason(s) why this epic pooch-screw happened. I'm just not willing to let CZ-USA off the hook so quickly.

 

[atblis]

2A Sales sold a number of these. Any insight from them?
https://www.mdshooters.com/showpost.php?p=5345880&postcount=687

It's looking more and more like CZ-USA was on board with this whole thing. If you look at all the descriptions wherever it says "stainless" it's always listed as a finish. CZ-USA apparently admitted it's a nickel finish (which is what it looks like). That kinda implies they know of the guns, where as if they had nothing to do with it, they'd disavow them.

CZ/CZ-USA makes some good guns, but they've been guilty of dumping stuff on the market in the past. This doesn't shock me at all, and I am a CZ fan.

 

[Czechnologist]

2A Sales sold a number of these. Any insight from them?
https://www.mdshooters.com/showpost.php?p=5345880&postcount=687

It's looking more and more like CZ-USA was on board with this whole thing. If you look at all the descriptions wherever it says "stainless" it's always listed as a finish. CZ-USA apparently admitted it's a nickel finish (which is what it looks like). That kinda implies they know of the guns, where as if they had nothing to do with it, they'd disavow them.

CZ/CZ-USA makes some good guns, but they've been guilty of dumping stuff on the market in the past. This doesn't shock me at all, and I am a CZ fan.

I'm sure they were just as surprised as the people who bought them. As far as insight, I doubt if they have anything more to offer than what's already out there, although, if I were a retailer who sold those things, I'd be on the phone with the distributor I got them from asking for an explanation. I think it's all going to come down to a matter of liability once they figure-out who, exactly, should be held liable. Lets hope it's only weeks/months instead of years.

 

[MichaelZWilliamson]

Well, if I didn't know any better, I'd think they did since the pistol was sold in one of their plastic cases with a CZ-USA sticker, product description and SKU # on it. That's what leads me to believe they were complicit in the deception. Unfortunately, I also don't see the mothership (CZ-UB) going out of its way to assure their American market that this wasn't a screw-up on its part but, then, I never had the impression that CZ-UB gave a big flying-crap about the USA, particularly when you consider that the bulk of their products are available in Europe months and sometimes years before they make it over here. Could this be the a sign that CZ is becoming more HK/Colt-like(?), in that, if you're not a government agency with big $ to spend, you can pretty much go find a corner and fvck yourself into-it? I hope not. We already have enough gun companies with that attitude towards civilian buyers. We don't need another and we definitely don't need another that whores-out its products to turn a quick profit by lying to consumers.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I think you're pretty damn close to the reason(s) why this epic pooch-screw happened. I'm just not willing to let CZ-USA off the hook so quickly.

"Well, if I didn't know any better,"

You don't, and should stop right there.

As far as importing guns to the US, I wonder if it's just barely possible that the US complicates that with some sort of import laws. Oh, wait, I don't wonder, I know that's the case.

Until there's more actual facts presented, NO ONE knows any better.

 

[Czechnologist]

"Well, if I didn't know any better,"

You don't, and should stop right there.

As far as importing guns to the US, I wonder if it's just barely possible that the US complicates that with some sort of import laws. Oh, wait, I don't wonder, I know that's the case.

Until there's more actual facts presented, NO ONE knows any better.

Well, “Michael”, in this case I do know that CZ-USA packaged the pistols in question. They labeled the pistols in question with the description, “stainless” and they distributed the pistols in question to retailers as a product from CZ-USA with the SKU # 91197. The next time you want to pull something I post out of context, make sure you pull the entire sentence and not just part of it?

And as far as stopping-right-there is concerned, why should I? Haven't I provided you with enough photographic and video evidence, along with an admission from an employee of CZ-USA, that the pistols in question are not stainless steel? Do you condone this type of flim-flam or are you simply a friend of a retailer who sold these things and wishes I'd just STFU?

 

[Racer Doug14]

"Well, if I didn't know any better,"

You don't, and should stop right there.

As far as importing guns to the US, I wonder if it's just barely possible that the US complicates that with some sort of import laws. Oh, wait, I don't wonder, I know that's the case.

Until there's more actual facts presented, NO ONE knows any better.

Zing at Zman.

And a zing back.

Popcorn please.

 

[atblis]

Don't know if this was posted yet...
https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=103860.30

 

[Czechnologist]

Don't know if this was posted yet...
https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=103860.30

Posted up-thread a ways, along with a quote from the Lead Moderator, 'Armoredman' who is an employee of CZ-USA, admitting that the pistols are not stainless steel.

 

[fidelity]

This YouTuber should maybe do a follow-up ...



(It's an unboxing video in which the guy thinks he's in possession of a limited run, stainless pistol from CZ ... I think there's only one comment so far that alludes to the pistol being something else)

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

[Czechnologist]

This YouTuber should maybe do a follow-up ...

(It's an unboxing video in which the guy thinks he's in possession of a limited run, stainless pistol from CZ ... I think there's only one comment so far that alludes to the pistol being something else)

Sooner or later, I'm sure that owners will find-out that CZ-USA pulled a fast one on them. It's a shame because I remember when they became available last October how much buzz they generated and how excited CZ fans were, some paying in excess of $1000. I imagine there's quite a few who are (justifiably) PO'd and feeling pretty stupid right now.

 

[Czechnologist]

An owner just received this reply from CZ-USA this morning:

Earlier this year we received a shipment of non-standard P-01s that were originally designed and built for a foreign market. This small batch of pistols were steel-framed P-01s with a Shadow-style flat safety and with a unique polished finish. What we originally understood to be a high-polished stainless gun has turned out to in fact be a gloss nickel finish. Due to the difficulty in achieving this finish, the factory has no expectation that they will ever create more of these pistols, making them one of the most rare and limited edition P-01s ever made with right at 200 imported.

Now that's what I call spinning some BS right there!

Of course, nothing mentioned about any special dispensation for people who bought those shiny turds under false pretenses.

 

[fidelity]

Polishing a turd is an apt metaphor - with the turd referring to not taking ownership of what is now clearly deceptive/dishonest marketing.

This is a remarkable statement ... "What we originally understood to be a high-polished stainless gun has turned out to in fact be a gloss nickel finish."

How the f*ck don't they know what they're manufacturing? Or is CZ-USA blaming the parent company for having sh1tty communication, and not taking ownership for slapping a label on guns that they weren't quite sure about? Or was it purposeful and this is the backtrack?

So different from how a company like Ruger would handle this situation (of course, they probably wouldn't get to the point to need to do damage control for false advertising).