Help Identifying a Rifle

[unglesb]

Hello All, I am new to this forum and hoping you can help me. I came into possession of a few (I think) World War II rifles. I could really use some help identifying this one. There are only a couple markings and they are in either Japanese or Chinese. I tried to attach some pictures, I think it worked.

Thanks for your help,
Kevin Unglesbee

 

[Threeband]

It was a Japanese Type 99 Arisaka before Bubba chopped off the front half of the stock.

It's a shame because it has the intact anti-aircraft sight, and the mum is mostly intact. It does look like someone just lightly brushed the mum with a grinder or file, though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_99_rifle

The Chrysanthemum mark above the chamber is the symbol of the Emperor. When these rifles were surrendered, the Japanese defaced or ground off as many mums as they could, to reduce the dishonor. Unground mums are thus worth more.

 

[unglesb]

Thanks

Thanks for the great info Threeband! It is really appreciated. Would the stock have been chopped for the same reason or why would someone do that?

 

[Threeband]

... why would someone do that?

Bubba did that.

The ways of Bubba are awful and mysterious.


Bubba is the guy who takes a valuable world-heritage artifact and improves it with a hacksaw and some cold blue.

Why spend $400 on a deer rifle from Wal Mart when you can customize an irreplaceable historic artifact?




Or alternatively,

Back in the 50s and 60s, the world was awash in a lot of junky old war surplus rifles selling for $15 each, mail order. Fortunately, Bubba rose to the occasion, and transformed tens of thousands of useless old clunkers into unique and valuable customized masterpieces.

"I'll show you how to do that. Here, hold my beer." ------- Bubba

More Bubba work:

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=121934

 

[Alphabrew]

I'm no expert on these but I would think that one is well worth a new stock. Looks like the rest if the rifle is in great shape, and I'd consider that an intact mum (perhaps incorrectly), although it is clearly damaged.

 

[Threeband]

Oh yes, I think that counts as an intact mum. The ground mums are really obliterated.


If the barrel isn't cut down, it might be easy to restore with a stock and a nosecap and a few other miscellanies. Or you could make a unique deer rifle with a hacksaw and some cold blue.

 

[unglesb]

Thanks for all your help guys, very informative. Gonna post my other unknown rifle once I get the pics finished.

 

[LostSoul]

I wouldn't call that 'mum "intact", but rather defaced. Intact would imply that it hasn't been modified in any way. Indeed sometimes they did grind the whole thing away, but at a minimum they would file gouges or stamp circles or some other way of "canceling" the emperor's mark.

 

[6pack]

Agreed, I would classify the mum as defaced.

If you can post a picture of the left side of the receiver showing the serial number and symbol there, we can tell you what arsenal made it and when.

 

[unglesb]

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is a "mum"? I am not familiar with that term. The pics of the left side of the receiver (/w serial) are attached. Thanks for your info.

 

[chevellenut71]

cant you take a better pic of the top markings maybe closer shot ( the one that looks like the sun / flower..

 

[Threeband]

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is a "mum"?...

...
It's a shame because ... the mum is mostly intact. It does look like someone just lightly brushed the mum with a grinder or file, though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_99_rifle

The Chrysanthemum mark above the chamber is the symbol of the Emperor. When these rifles were surrendered, the Japanese defaced or ground off as many mums as they could, to reduce the dishonor. Unground mums are thus worth more.

Intact mum

Ground mum

Chrysanthemum Throne

Queen Mum

 

[iH8DemLibz]

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is a "mum"? I am not familiar with that term. The pics of the left side of the receiver (/w serial) are attached. Thanks for your info.

Please excuse the misspelling of this. "MUM" stands for "Crisanthimum" The flower is considered holy by the Japanese.

That's why the US Armed Forces took the time to DEFACE the "MUM" after we beat Japan.

An intact MUM is a very rare find.


P.S. I was way off on the spelling.

 

[Threeband]

I believe the Japanese themselves defaced the mums, when they had to surrender all their rifles at the end of the war. The Chrysanthemum is the emblem of the God-Emperor, and it is an unspeakable dishonor to allow it to be sullied by the round-eyed devils.

 

[Alphabrew]

"Round-eyed devils"

 

[Threeband]

Ah, here we go.

Very interesting write up on the subject:

"All rifle production stopped when Japan surrendered in August 1945. American occupation forces destroyed all production tools. The terms of surrender required the Japanese to disarm their forces and deliver all weapons at times and places prescribed by commanders of the occupation forces. During collection of arms under this directive, the Japanese requested permission from Allied Headquarters to be allowed to remove the imperial Japanese seal from all rifles before they were turned over to occupation forces. Permission was granted and the crests were -around off all surrendered rifles. (Underlining added) The only rifles with the crests intact were those captured in combat zones." (5)

Lots more:
http://www.gunboards.com/sites/banzai/featarts/mummystery/missingmum.htm


I hadn't realized that some were only a bit defaced, like the OP's. All the one's I've seen were totally obliterated. But I am not an Arisaka expert, not even really a fan.

 

[unglesb]

Thanks all for the info. It's cool to learn that it is a little bit of a rare rifle. I am pretty new to collecting and especially new to collecting the older rifles. (this thing is twice my age)

A better picture of the "mum" and marking on the top is below as requested. I would say that it is not defaced at all. It might have markings from normal wear and tear, but physically looking at it, there is no obvious sign (at least from what I can see) that anyone tried to remove the "mum" whatsoever.

 

[Threeband]

Like I said, Arisakas aren't my thing, but it looks like five deliberate file cuts to me.

Try to find a stock and nosecap, and of course, the other miscellanies. Restore it!

 

[unglesb]

Oh, Threeband, I see what you mean. Haha, I thought those marks were intentional. Looking at some others, it appears that you are correct,

By the way, I have been looking for some ammo for this gun. It looks like it takes 7.7×58mm Arisaka. Does anyone know where I can find some reasonably priced ammo for this gun? The best I have found is over $30 for a box of 20 .

I would be fine with surplus or corrosive ammo, I clean them after use anyways so I think it would be OK.

Thanks!

 

[chevellenut71]

Oh, Threeband, I see what you mean. Haha, I thought those marks were intentional. Looking at some others, it appears that you are correct,

By the way, I have been looking for some ammo for this gun. It looks like it takes 7.7×58mm Arisaka. Does anyone know where I can find some reasonably priced ammo for this gun? The best I have found is over $30 for a box of 20 .

I would be fine with surplus or corrosive ammo, I clean them after use anyways so I think it would be OK.

Thanks!