Help building MD compliant upper

[fabsroman]

Good advice. I've gone this rout with one of my SBP/pistols.

I don't thing a "sidecharger" exempts one from barrel profile requirements though.

Yeah, I was wondering about this. If a side charge could exempt the gun from being a copy, there would be a lot of AR-15's for sale in Maryland with pencil barrels.

Guess I need to start another thread and ask for the dealer advisory that pertains to what is considered a HBAR barrel.

 

[outrider58]

Yeah, I was wondering about this. If a side charge could exempt the gun from being a copy, there would be a lot of AR-15's for sale in Maryland with pencil barrels.

Guess I need to start another thread and ask for the dealer advisory that pertains to what is considered a HBAR barrel.

Why not go straight to the source. Plenty of IPs here to ask directly.

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[kalister1]

IMHO the fact that there is NO strict legal definition of H-Bar is to OUR benefit. Maybe if we can get enough people to E-Mail/Call/Write to the MSP for a definitive answer every LEO in the State can carry a set if Micrometers to measure your barrel? If it comes down to proving what your barrel is, it's already costing you big $$$$$.

 

[outrider58]

Great point. Now, please edit this post before someone sees it and thinks it a great idea.

 

[kalister1]

Great point. Now, please edit this post before someone sees it and thinks it a great idea.

Hows that?

 

[fabsroman]

Great point. Now, please edit this post before someone sees it and thinks it a great idea.

Personally, I would prefer to have something in my hand that makes sense and that I can follow, versus all this BS that the Court of Appeals might not agree with as it tries to figure out what a copy of a Colt AR-15 Sporter HBAR happens to be.

Heck, I am sitting here wondering how the heck a SBR, even with a HBAR barrel, can be a copy of a Colt AR-15 Sporter HBAR.

Might have to re-read that ATF letter about the SIIG Brace. Thought I had read in it that the brace is alright as long as it is not intended to be used from the shoulder.

 

[outrider58]

Hows that?

Mostly kidding, but we don't want gvt. officials running around with michrometers checking hbars, now do we?

I am very satisfied with the current methods of determining heavy barrels. The more barking about this, the more slap-downs we will receive.

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[fabsroman]

Mostly kidding, but we don't want gvt. officials running around with michrometers checking hbars, now do we?

I am very satisfied with the current methods of determining heavy barrels. The more barking about this, the more slap-downs we will receive.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

I don't want them running around putting handcuffs on me because my "copy" of a Colt AR-15 Sporter H-BAR isn't a "copy". That is the part that scares the crap out of me. As long as I am not the first person to get arrested, and I get wind of it ahead of time, I guess I can always move to Pennsylvania to save myself.

 

[rtse4me]

Personally, I would prefer to have something in my hand that makes sense and that I can follow, versus all this BS that the Court of Appeals might not agree with as it tries to figure out what a copy of a Colt AR-15 Sporter HBAR happens to be.

Heck, I am sitting here wondering how the heck a SBR, even with a HBAR barrel, can be a copy of a Colt AR-15 Sporter HBAR.

Might have to re-read that ATF letter about the SIIG Brace. Thought I had read in it that the brace is alright as long as it is not intended to be used from the shoulder.

With respect to stabilizing braces, ATF has concluded that attaching the brace to a handgun as a forearm brace does not ‘make’ a short-barreled firearm because … it is not intended to be and cannot comfortably be fired from the shoulder.” The letter continues: “Therefore, an NFA firearm has not necessarily been made when the device is not re-configured for use as a shoulder stock — even if the attached firearm happens to be fired from the shoulder.”
https://www.sigsauer.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/atf-letter-march-21-2017.pdf

You could also just put a rimfire upper on at least you wouldn't be wasting a stamp. They are kind of fun and you don't have to worry about oal or profile. I am getting one for my SBR lower.

 

[tygr6]

I've been in the process of attempting to definitively figure out the whole "HBAR" issue for a few months and only today came upon this thread. Very interesting that so many have been going through the same legal/mental gyrations. Maybe recounting my experience will be helpful to some:

My initial reply from the MSP regarding my HBAR barrel question was the following:

"Heavy barrel is not defined in statute. As long as the manufacturer declares that the barrel is a hbar or heavy barrel that will be accepted
as a long gun and not a regulated firearm. Bull barrel, match barrel etc.... would not be sufficient to be a heavy barrel."

I take that to mean explicitly HBAR or heavy; otherwise, it's a no go. Then comes the task of identifying what actually is a heavy/hbar barrel from those available. My first mistake was to order a Faxon Heavy Fluted barrel thinking that "Heavy" pertained to the barrel profile; this was incorrect according to Faxon. In response to my query, the Faxon rep stated:

"The barrel you have is the heaviest profile we offer, however, the name connotes the flutes, not the barrel."

Therefore, according to Faxon, the "Heavy" pertained to the aggressiveness of the fluting which are very deep cuts on this barrel. So, unfortunately, the Faxon Heavy Fluted is a no go. Maybe I'll save it as a gift for a relative in a free-er state.

Ultimately, in order for me to be comfortable with an AR-15 rifle barrel for my build, I will either want to see "HBAR" or "heavy" marked/stamped on the barrel or see the model/part number indicated that I can explicitly link to the marketing/sale documentation via the same number. So the identical model/part number will have to be on the barrel AND the documents. I have so far come across several cases where the link from the barrel to the documentation is only implied and not explicit. I unfortunately even purchased one of those (not the Faxon mentioned above) where it was marketed as HBAR but the docs and the barrel are not definitively linked by id, so that one is going back now. (Too bad -- it's a nice one too.) I have been in contact with some manufacturers regarding making the linkage definitive in their production and so far the responses have been promising. If I have success in that regard or if I locate a nice barrel with sufficient documentation, I will be sure to report back here.

As of now, my build is on hold pending the resolution of the HBAR issue. Wish me luck!

Cheers

 

[fabsroman]

I've been in the process of attempting to definitively figure out the whole "HBAR" issue for a few months and only today came upon this thread. Very interesting that so many have been going through the same legal/mental gyrations. Maybe recounting my experience will be helpful to some:

My initial reply from the MSP regarding my HBAR barrel question was the following:

"Heavy barrel is not defined in statute. As long as the manufacturer declares that the barrel is a hbar or heavy barrel that will be accepted
as a long gun and not a regulated firearm. Bull barrel, match barrel etc.... would not be sufficient to be a heavy barrel."

I take that to mean explicitly HBAR or heavy; otherwise, it's a no go. Then comes the task of identifying what actually is a heavy/hbar barrel from those available. My first mistake was to order a Faxon Heavy Fluted barrel thinking that "Heavy" pertained to the barrel profile; this was incorrect according to Faxon. In response to my query, the Faxon rep stated:

"The barrel you have is the heaviest profile we offer, however, the name connotes the flutes, not the barrel."

Therefore, according to Faxon, the "Heavy" pertained to the aggressiveness of the fluting which are very deep cuts on this barrel. So, unfortunately, the Faxon Heavy Fluted is a no go. Maybe I'll save it as a gift for a relative in a free-er state.

Ultimately, in order for me to be comfortable with an AR-15 rifle barrel for my build, I will either want to see "HBAR" or "heavy" marked/stamped on the barrel or see the model/part number indicated that I can explicitly link to the marketing/sale documentation via the same number. So the identical model/part number will have to be on the barrel AND the documents. I have so far come across several cases where the link from the barrel to the documentation is only implied and not explicit. I unfortunately even purchased one of those (not the Faxon mentioned above) where it was marketed as HBAR but the docs and the barrel are not definitively linked by id, so that one is going back now. (Too bad -- it's a nice one too.) I have been in contact with some manufacturers regarding making the linkage definitive in their production and so far the responses have been promising. If I have success in that regard or if I locate a nice barrel with sufficient documentation, I will be sure to report back here.

As of now, my build is on hold pending the resolution of the HBAR issue. Wish me luck!

Cheers

Great first post. This really is some insanity.

Hard to believe that there isn't a manufacturer our there that is willing to make a "Maryland compliant" barrel with a model name/number associated with it and stamped on the barrel. Is there no barrel manufacturer in Maryland willing to make HBAR/Heavy barrels for the AR-15? I sit here wondering if this is some niche market that I could get myself into.

With that said, I know that Engage in Rockille was getting some barrels from White Oak that were stamped HBAR. When I stopped in and spoke to Nate about getting some for my SBR builds, he said that it was probably unlikely because they have to order in quantity and there isn't that much demand for the barrels for SBR builds. This conversation was so long ago, that Nate has left Engaged for a job with Ruger in its legal department. Granted, Ruger then came out with a Maryland Compliant AR-15 with the correct barrel profile and a 10 round mag. I really like Ruger. lol

So, my search for a HBAR barrel for my SBR builds continues. I'll eventually get the dealer advisory regarding what constitutes HBAR/Heavy and then I will just order some custom barrels from X-Caliber. At least they associate a barrel diameter with their HBAR selection.

 

[outrider58]

My first mistake was to order a Faxon Heavy Fluted barrel thinking that "Heavy" pertained to the barrel profile; this was incorrect according to Faxon. In response to my query, the Faxon rep stated:

"The barrel you have is the heaviest profile we offer, however, the name connotes the flutes, not the barrel."

Therefore, according to Faxon, the "Heavy" pertained to the aggressiveness of the fluting which are very deep cuts on this barrel. So, unfortunately, the Faxon Heavy Fluted is a no go. Maybe I'll save it as a gift for a relative in a free-er state.

As of now, my build is on hold pending the resolution of the HBAR issue. Wish me luck!

Cheers

That is one of the stupidest things I've heard lately. Those people are morons.

As to non-heavy barrels. They are not illegal to own in Md post '13. Just illegal to use on a post '13 gun in Maryland. If you go out of state, you may slap that upper on your post '13 gun and blaze away, as long as it is legal in that state.

 

[kalister1]

Personally, I would prefer to have something in my hand that makes sense and that I can follow, versus all this BS that the Court of Appeals might not agree with as it tries to figure out what a copy of a Colt AR-15 Sporter HBAR happens to be.

Heck, I am sitting here wondering how the heck a SBR, even with a HBAR barrel, can be a copy of a Colt AR-15 Sporter HBAR.

Might have to re-read that ATF letter about the SIIG Brace. Thought I had read in it that the brace is alright as long as it is not intended to be used from the shoulder.

Mostly kidding, but we don't want gvt. officials running around with michrometers checking hbars, now do we?

I am very satisfied with the current methods of determining heavy barrels. The more barking about this, the more slap-downs we will receive.

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My point exactly. Leave it alone.

The interpretation of the LAW is whatever the Judge you are in front of at the time says it is. If you disagree with that Judge you have the option to appeal, the Judge has the option to keep you in cage while you do that.
As a citizen of Maryland I am required to live within the Law, not just the intent but the letter. The only problem is I cannot get a legally binding opinion of the Law from the State.
The MSP has given guidance that allows the manufacturer to determine the "Profile" of the barrel. What more can we expect?

 

[outrider58]

My point exactly. Leave it alone.

The interpretation of the LAW is whatever the Judge you are in front of at the time says it is. If you disagree with that Judge you have the option to appeal, the Judge has the option to keep you in cage while you do that.
As a citizen of Maryland I am required to live within the Law, not just the intent but the letter. The only problem is I cannot get a legally binding opinion of the Law from the State.
The MSP has given guidance that allows the manufacturer to determine the "Profile" of the barrel. What more can we expect?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[fabsroman]

My point exactly. Leave it alone.

The interpretation of the LAW is whatever the Judge you are in front of at the time says it is. If you disagree with that Judge you have the option to appeal, the Judge has the option to keep you in cage while you do that.
As a citizen of Maryland I am required to live within the Law, not just the intent but the letter. The only problem is I cannot get a legally binding opinion of the Law from the State.
The MSP has given guidance that allows the manufacturer to determine the "Profile" of the barrel. What more can we expect?

What if I request a trial by jury. Wouldn't a charge of this magnitude provide me with the option of a jury trial? Yes, the judge would give the jury instructions regarding the elements of the crime, but the jury would be the one interpreting everything. I'd actually have to look up the penalties for violating this law, but I am pretty sure they are stiff enough to qualify for a jury trial.

What can we expect? We can expect the legislature to provide a cleaner law than what it has provided. They want to complain about the tax reform bill being a mess. Well, take a look at FSA2013. It really wouldn't be all that hard for the General Assembly to provide for a definition of Colt AR-15 Sporter HBAR.

 

[freebird]

Mostly kidding, but we don't want gvt. officials running around with michrometers checking hbars, now do we?

I am very satisfied with the current methods of determining heavy barrels. The more barking about this, the more slap-downs we will receive.

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This.

 

[dreadpirate]

This.

Yes.

 

[fabsroman]

Yes.

I know, it is always easier to not stir the pot and take advantage of what the powers that be are giving us right now. That is until the powers that be change their mind, and next thing I know i am wearing silver bracelets.

 

[kalister1]

What if I request a trial by jury. Wouldn't a charge of this magnitude provide me with the option of a jury trial? Yes, the judge would give the jury instructions regarding the elements of the crime, but the jury would be the one interpreting everything. I'd actually have to look up the penalties for violating this law, but I am pretty sure they are stiff enough to qualify for a jury trial.

What can we expect? We can expect the legislature to provide a cleaner law than what it has provided. They want to complain about the tax reform bill being a mess. Well, take a look at FSA2013. It really wouldn't be all that hard for the General Assembly to provide for a definition of Colt AR-15 Sporter HBAR.

Colt has already provided that. Look up the original specs and don't deviate.
I think that means fixed stock, 20" barrel, carry handle upper, full round hand guards? Very simple to play it safe.

 

[fabsroman]

Colt has already provided that. Look up the original specs and don't deviate.
I think that means fixed stock, 20" barrel, carry handle upper, full round hand guards? Very simple to play it safe.

Yeah, but this is for a SBR. Feds say I can make it as long as it is 29"+.

With any other AR I build, I'll have to get the profile of the Sporter barrel and adhere to it. Not hard to do there. Wonder what happens to people that acquire a Colt AR-15 Sporter HBAR that has been modified from its original form?

Then again, I have 8 pre-ban lowers. Once I get past the SBR issue on my post ban lowers, I might just stick to building AR-10 rifles for long range use.