HBAR build after October?

[Merlin]

Does anyone know if we will be allowed to build HBAR rifles after 10-1?

Or is this a question for a new Thread or Topic?

I can't find any information on this.

At this point you can't find any hard info on how things will be. We are hoping for the best and always expecting the worst. The only thing I can add is when I/we spoke to the MSP just a few weeks ago about HBAR's, I ask will anything change of with the way HBARs are handled after 10/1. The trooper told me that he did hear there were going to be some changes, but he did not know if any of the changes had anything to do with the HBARs.


Sooooooooo, stay tuned. IMHO, I think if nothing else, something will delay 281 from starting 10/1. whether it be referendum or a court case that will delay it's start. But I think that something will.

 

[jr88]

This is the first time I have seen the infamous "HBAR Letter"; the letter itself is a bigger joke than SB281! Here we have a single sentence about a Bushmaster Hbar, written by some person (not the Super) from the MSP to an FFL who lost his license and I believe did jail time for multiple violations of federal firearms laws. I have often tried to get a definitive ruling on this "grey area" of Md. gun law with no success. I get different responses from different FFl's. I even wrote a few letters to Wyndam Weaponry asking what "defined" their HBAR model as just that, never got a response. The sad thing is; going by the law as written the only exempted rifle the "COLT SPORTER HBAR" is no longer made. So I guess this all depends on how big a gambler you are and how much you can afford to spend on legal fees.

 

[Merlin]

This is the first time I have seen the infamous "HBAR Letter"; the letter itself is a bigger joke than SB281! Here we have a single sentence about a Bushmaster Hbar, written by some person (not the Super) from the MSP to an FFL who lost his license and I believe did jail time for multiple violations of federal firearms laws. I have often tried to get a definitive ruling on this "grey area" of Md. gun law with no success. I get different responses from different FFl's. I even wrote a few letters to Wyndam Weaponry asking what "defined" their HBAR model as just that, never got a response. The sad thing is; going by the law as written the only exempted rifle the "COLT SPORTER HBAR" is no longer made. So I guess this all depends on how big a gambler you are and how much you can afford to spend on legal fees.

Why do you feel it necessary to insult the person that produced the letter? It's has nothing to do with being a gambler. Just stop asking uniformed FFL's. Call the MSP and ask them as I did. Changing any FFL's mind that does not want to bother with having their mind changed about how HBAR’s are looked at by the MSP is another issue. However, this is not a big mystery that we cannot solve. And let’s find ways to respect the other members instead of that many ways we can insult them.

Read this post and call them yourself.

http://www.mdshooters.com/showpost.php?p=2416455&postcount=20

 

[dblas]

dblas, question for you;

And forgive me if we covered this. But we, or should I say I now know that (as it stands now, and hopefully continues), the MSP lets a FFL to sell any rifle that either has HBAR stamped on the barrel, or, any rifle that the FFL can categorize as an HBAR even if HBAR is not stamped in the barrel over the counter without regulated paperwork.

But I'm assuming my statement above deals with commercially manufactured rifles.

So far, so good

My question is, does this also extend to an AR we build with an HBAR?

It should.

My first thought that is does not on guns we build because when you buy just a receiver from any manufacture it has to go through an FFL with regulated paperwork no matter what. And you can claim that your intentions are to build an HBAR rifle all you want, but they will still require the FFL/regulated paperwork.

The ATF requires paperwork because a receiver is classified as a firearm, I am not sure why the state requires paperwork (77R), because I have yet to see a receiver or frame from any firearm on any regulated list in Maryland (Can someone provide a list if there is one please). So there is an arguement as wether or not a receiver is regulated or not in MD.

For the sake of this discussion, let's say it is regulated, I think we would want it to be regulated, so that we would be able to continue to build regulated versions of the AR up until October 1. After October 1 is the issue and no onw really knows what will happen.

Also, is it your opinion that we will still be able to buy complete AR receivers after 10/1 if we are going to build a HBAR rifle?

My knee jerk answer is yes, we should be, but the little nagging voice in the back of my head says no.

 

[dblas]

This is the first time I have seen the infamous "HBAR Letter"; the letter itself is a bigger joke than SB281! Here we have a single sentence about a Bushmaster Hbar, written by some person (not the Super) from the MSP to an FFL who lost his license and I believe did jail time for multiple violations of federal firearms laws. I have often tried to get a definitive ruling on this "grey area" of Md. gun law with no success. I get different responses from different FFl's. I even wrote a few letters to Wyndam Weaponry asking what "defined" their HBAR model as just that, never got a response. The sad thing is; going by the law as written the only exempted rifle the "COLT SPORTER HBAR" is no longer made. So I guess this all depends on how big a gambler you are and how much you can afford to spend on legal fees.

So, a letter from the (then) supervisor of the MSP Licensing Division holds no weight with you?

And again, what does the past history of the original FFL have to do with the letter? Absolutely nothing, as the letter shows he was getting clarification.

And if you want clarification on a "grey area" of Maryland Law, why don't you call the MSP (who enforces that law) instead of asking different FFLs?

And as for a definition of an HBAR, it is a heavy barrel, generally it is any barrel with a diameter of 0.875" to 0.980" under the handguards.

Govt profile barrels where originally specified to be tapered from 0.670" just forward of the larger chamber area down to about 0.600" just before the step-up for the gas block.

A1 profile will have a 0.625" gas block and 0.575 to 0.590 forward of that.

A2/M4 profiles will have a 0.750" gas block and then 0.730" forward of that.

Does that help?

 

[jr88]

Why do you feel it necessary to insult the person that produced the letter? It's has nothing to do with being a gambler. Just stop asking uniformed FFL's. Call the MSP and ask them as I did. Changing any FFL's mind that does not want to bother with having their mind changed about how HBAR’s are looked at by the MSP is another issue. However, this is not a big mystery that we cannot solve. And let’s find ways to respect the other members instead of that many ways we can insult them.

Read this post and call them yourself.

http://www.mdshooters.com/showpost.php?p=2416455&postcount=20

I in no way meant to insult the person that went thru the trouble of producing the letter; I appreciate their effort. What I think is a joke is the way our state enforces the law, inconsistently. I have asked the MSP on numerous occassions and received different answers. I have done the same with at least a half dozen Md. FFl's and also received conflicting answers.
If you want to take the chance on hearsay and interpretation, go for it.
Good luck getting the MSP to go to court for you and support your case.
The definition of HBAR AR-15's as it pertains to Md. Gun Laws needs to be
clarified, period. We all know that this is an outdated loophole that I fear will get some people in trouble, they no longer even make the rifle the exemption was meant to protect.

 

[jr88]

So, a letter from the (then) supervisor of the MSP Licensing Division holds no weight with you?

And again, what does the past history of the original FFL have to do with the letter? Absolutely nothing, as the letter shows he was getting clarification.

And if you want clarification on a "grey area" of Maryland Law, why don't you call the MSP (who enforces that law) instead of asking different FFLs?

And as for a definition of an HBAR, it is a heavy barrel, generally it is any barrel with a diameter of 0.875" to 0.980" under the handguards.

Govt profile barrels where originally specified to be tapered from 0.670" just forward of the larger chamber area down to about 0.600" just before the step-up for the gas block.

A1 profile will have a 0.625" gas block and 0.575 to 0.590 forward of that.

A2/M4 profiles will have a 0.750" gas block and then 0.730" forward of that.

Does that help?

NO, I do not trust the MSP, the Governor and most of the states elected officials. They are all politicians who talk out of both sides of their mouth. Any time their exists a "loose interpretation" of a firearm by people who know little to nothing about firearms, I prefer to err on the side of caution, especially when it means a 10 year prison sentence.
Remember, it won't be pro 2A folks, who know what a HBAR is supposed to be who prosecute you. It will be people like Frosh and O'Malley, using lawyers that won't have any problem pointing out that you rifle is illegal because it isn't a "Colt Sporter HBAR" as the law dictates. Try convincing a jury of average folks from PG or Baltimore that your Spikes Tactical with the Zombie on the receiver is the same as the Sporter HBAR, just because of the barrel size under the rail!

 

[Merlin]

So far, so good



It should.



The ATF requires paperwork because a receiver is classified as a firearm, I am not sure why the state requires paperwork (77R), because I have yet to see a receiver or frame from any firearm on any regulated list in Maryland (Can someone provide a list if there is one please). So there is an arguement as wether or not a receiver is regulated or not in MD.

For the sake of this discussion, let's say it is regulated, I think we would want it to be regulated, so that we would be able to continue to build regulated versions of the AR up until October 1. After October 1 is the issue and no onw really knows what will happen.



My knee jerk answer is yes, we should be, but the little nagging voice in the back of my head says no.

I feel the same way with the "it should" answer. However I bet it doesn't because the receiver can also be used for regulated build, and the system does not have any checks and balances to insure you do build the HBAR you said you were going to build. It would just be to easy to side step the law.

I with you on we would want it treated as a regulated part now. But there is so much gray area I can only guess if we were to press the issues they would take a much harder look at the HBAR issue and come up with something we will not be very happy with.


Let me ask this. If I were to take the HBAR I own now, and replace the barrel with a non-HBAR barrel, am I breaking a law? I want to say no, but I'm not sure. And I feel it's a question better left unasked to the MSP.

 

[Merlin]

NO, I do not trust the MSP, the Governor and most of the states elected officials. They are all politicians who talk out of both sides of their mouth. Any time their exists a "loose interpretation" of a firearm by people who know little to nothing about firearms, I prefer to err on the side of caution, especially when it means a 10 year prison sentence.
Remember, it won't be pro 2A folks, who know what a HBAR is supposed to be who prosecute you. It will be people like Frosh and O'Malley, using lawyers that won't have any problem pointing out that you rifle is illegal because it isn't a "Colt Sporter HBAR" as the law dictates. Try convincing a jury of average folks from PG or Baltimore that your Spikes Tactical with the Zombie on the receiver is the same as the Sporter HBAR, just because of the barrel size under the rail!

Well then your just that guy that will not believe anyone. So as far as your concerned, HBAR's are regulated so stop looking for an answer to your question because when your told they are not, to include the MSP, you think it's all a trick to get you in jail.

No matter what someone tells you to include the MSP, you will not believe them. If do run into that FFL that feels the same way that I do and will sell any HBAR over the counter, you will just think that FFL does not know what they are talking about and if you were to buy the HBAR the law will soon be after you.

I think that is a little on the ridicules side, But if it works for you, OK then.

Sure, there are MSP troopers at the very top of the org that are more politicians then LEO's. But the rank and fill are the ones you will be dealing with, not the top dogs. And the rank and file MSP are gun guys that are not trying to trick other gun guys into the big house.

So if you call that very unit within the MSP that deals and sets what is enforced tells you that any HBAR can be sold over the counter without regulated paperwork, and you do not want to believe them, there is nothing anyone can say to get you to change your mind.

But I on the other hand will buy any HBAR a FFL will sell me over the counter with troopers stand to my right and left all day long. And then I will invite them over my house to shoot them. (as long as they bring their own ammo.)

 

[jr88]

Well then your just that guy that will not believe anyone. So as far as your concerned, HBAR's are regulated so stop looking for an answer to your question because when your told they are not, to include the MSP, you think it's all a trick to get you in jail.

No matter what someone tells you to include the MSP, you will not believe them. If do run into that FFL that feels the same way that I do and will sell any HBAR over the counter, you will just think that FFL does not know what they are talking about and if you were to buy the HBAR the law will soon be after you.

I think that is a little on the ridicules side, But if it works for you, OK then.

Sure, there are MSP troopers at the very top of the org that are more politicians then LEO's. But the rank and fill are the ones you will be dealing with, not the top dogs. And the rank and file MSP are gun guys that are not trying to trick other gun guys into the big house.

So if you call that very unit within the MSP that deals and sets what is enforced tells you that any HBAR can be sold over the counter without regulated paperwork, and you do not want to believe them, there is nothing anyone can say to get you to change your mind.

But I on the other hand will buy any HBAR a FFL will sell me over the counter with troopers stand to my right and left all day long. And then I will invite them over my house to shoot them. (as long as they bring their own ammo.)

I didn't say all HBAR's were regulated, I said I felt that not ALL Hbar's are excluded from the upcoming ban list, based on the verbage in the bill. The reason I have repeatedly attempted to get an absolute answer to this is to see if it is indeed a question with a definitive answer. To the guys that acknowledge some FFl's will not sell most HBARs C/C I ask, doesn't that send up a red flag? Or do you just think you are smarter than those FFls? The reason I am so cautious with this topic is I don't think we as a community should be giving advice to people who come here looking for answers unless it is black and white, I feel SB281 is yet to be tested. I really don't know why everyone wants to buy a HBAR to try and circumvent the law anyway, just buy the rifle as regulated and be done with it. Why even take the chance it might be illegal. It is funny how many people want an AR that is not "in the system" in case the state tries to collect their rifles someday. Yet you trust those same people of the state on a loose interpretation of a legal rifle.

 

[Merlin]

I didn't say all HBAR's were regulated, I said I felt that not ALL Hbar's are excluded from the upcoming ban list, based on the verbage in the bill. The reason I have repeatedly attempted to get an absolute answer to this is to see if it is indeed a question with a definitive answer. To the guys that acknowledge some FFl's will not sell most HBARs C/C I ask, doesn't that send up a red flag? Or do you just think you are smarter than those FFls? The reason I am so cautious with this topic is I don't think we as a community should be giving advice to people who come here looking for answers unless it is black and white, I feel SB281 is yet to be tested. I really don't know why everyone wants to buy a HBAR to try and circumvent the law anyway, just buy the rifle as regulated and be done with it. Why even take the chance it might be illegal. It is funny how many people want an AR that is not "in the system" in case the state tries to collect their rifles someday. Yet you trust those same people of the state on a loose interpretation of a legal rifle.

The MSP run the show when it comes to the enforcement of the laws, and you have to trust someone sometimes. I called the MSP and was told they are OK with any HBAR over the counter, not just Colt rifles. The letter from long ago from a trooper also shows it is not just colt rifles. And it doesn't matter who the letter was sent to or that he may have done jail time. He did not go to jail over HBAR rifles or the letter.

Personally I feel I can very much trust the trooper that works right at the Firearms Licensing Unit that regulates things like this, that when he tells me all HBAR's, no matter who makes them, is OK over the counter. I'm OK with that and believe him.

The problem is the law is very poorly written. But this is how the MSP decided to interpret it to mean. And who knows what trooper you asked. I bet none from the Firearms Licensing Unit.

If the State ever started to confiscate firearms, you have much more to concern yourself with then the HBAR some FFL sold you with out paperwork. If anything that will be your one shinning star.

But I would never tell you to do anything your not 100% comfortable with. So unless the HBAR has stamped into the side of it COLT SPORTER HBAR, I would not buy it if I were you.

 

[drthv8r]

Knowing how much owemalley and anti-gun maryland hates guns and how scared they are of that mean evil looking black rifle. I really don't think calling a trooper on the phone and having him tell me over the phone any clone of a Colt HBAR is an HBAR in the eyes of maryland law. I want to have a dated and signed letter from MSP with MSP letterhead saying it's ok with Colt HBAR clones. If you're dragged into court saying you called a trooper and was told over the phone what was told to you it's going to be looked at as hearsay, or so I would think. I wouldn't trust the state of maryland nor owemalley as far as I can toss them with a full grown elephant strapped to their backs. Specially when it comes to ARs.

 

[Merlin]

Knowing how much owemalley and anti-gun maryland hates guns and how scared they are of that mean evil looking black rifle. I really don't think calling a trooper on the phone and having him tell me over the phone any clone of a Colt HBAR is an HBAR in the eyes of maryland law. I want to have a dated and signed letter from MSP with MSP letterhead saying it's ok with Colt HBAR clones. If you're dragged into court saying you called a trooper and was told over the phone what was told to you it's going to be looked at as hearsay, or so I would think. I wouldn't trust the state of maryland nor owemalley as far as I can toss them with a full grown elephant strapped to their backs. Specially when it comes to ARs.

That's what we want to hear. More HBAR's for us.

 

[Markp]

Knowing how much owemalley and anti-gun maryland hates guns and how scared they are of that mean evil looking black rifle. I really don't think calling a trooper on the phone and having him tell me over the phone any clone of a Colt HBAR is an HBAR in the eyes of maryland law. I want to have a dated and signed letter from MSP with MSP letterhead saying it's ok with Colt HBAR clones. If you're dragged into court saying you called a trooper and was told over the phone what was told to you it's going to be looked at as hearsay, or so I would think. I wouldn't trust the state of maryland nor owemalley as far as I can toss them with a full grown elephant strapped to their backs. Specially when it comes to ARs.

Well perhaps you could be happy with this... which specifically states that all sporter variants are NOT regulated! Including an example of an UNREGULATED AK!!!

 

[mac1_131]

OMG... Not another HBAR thread!

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