HB1302-"The Neighborhood Bag Lady Can Take Your Guns" bill

[Rack&Roll]

We had a shi*t ton of interactions with Senators and Delegates today where we asked (OK, demanded nicely) that every Republican vote NO on the RED FLAG bill.

Several legislators on our side said there are good indications that 99% of Republicans will be voting down this stupid and unlawful bill.

Here are the Four Horseman Of The MGA Apocalypse that fought today for truth, justice and the American way.

Thank Bob A and HRDWRK when you get a moment!

 

[Occam]

Here are the Four Horseman Of The MGA

Thank you, horsemen!

 

[GLR En]

Thank you guys for all you do.

 

[zoostation]

Another aspect we haven't brought up is how this bill can subject police officers to danger. If a vindictive person wants to disarm an officer, all they have to do is swear out an interim order and disarm him. Leaving him open to retaliatory actions from suspects and defendants.

It also opens officers to threats of blackmail from family members, acquaintances, and just about anybody else willing to lie under oath. Given Baltimore City's recent problems I would think the legislature would want to do everything possible to make certain that police officers are not subject to such kind of pressures.

I think it would be a good idea to push hard for law enforcement exemption in the bill. And there's a strategy behind that before anybody starts yelling about law enforcement exemptions. There's no way the liberal sponsors of the bill could possibly be able to present a serious law enforcement exemption in this bill without making an absolute mess of the bill and also alienating a lot of their constituents. It puts them between a rock and a hard place and has the potential to kill the bill.

 

[snakep]

Saying thank you is not enough...but I thank you all.

 

[zoostation]

Yeah , you are right some gal you turned down for a night-cap gets evil when you don't give in .
I can picture threads in our near future .

I can see it now.

"Oh yeah Your Honor we dated, sure we did, and he just won't call me back. I feel so angry, oops I mean worried, about him."

 

[esqappellate]

Thank you, horsemen!

AKA, "the usual suspects"

 

[Not_an_outlaw]

So, when Sargent Pope pulls a sign out of my hand, threatens to arrest me, and does arrest my friends, you bet I'll file an action on him. When a lawman takes away my civil right of free speech, he's going to have to deal with the laws of his bosses. Although I am not one of the allowed interested persons.

 

[lazarus]

Though I want this thrown in the can and forgotten about, am I reading the amended bill correctly that the respondent is no longer financially responsible for “storage costs”? Also now there is a definite time line in which police must return everything. Also itnow specifically calls out that police have to try to take good care of everything. It is polishing a turd for sure.

 

[Rack&Roll]

Though I want this thrown in the can and forgotten about, am I reading the amended bill correctly that the respondent is no longer financially responsible for “storage costs”? Also now there is a definite time line in which police must return everything. Also itnow specifically calls out that police have to try to take good care of everything. It is polishing a turd for sure.

Nice try Democraps!

But you forgot about abusing me by writing the 1st, 2nd and 4th Amendments out of your new Maryland law! Homey don't allow that.

See you in court, bitchez.

 

[EL1227]

Nice try Democraps!

But you forgot about abusing me by writing the 1st, 2nd and 4th Amendments out of your new Maryland law! Homey don't allow that.

See you in court, bitchez.

You'd have thunk that Miller and his Minions should have gotten a clue from his failed attempt at suppressing your/our free speech on the sidewalk just a few short months ago. I guess since they have yet to have their day in court they felt that they could extend their tentacles even further.

Make no mistake that this abomination is 'targeted' (pun intended) at law abiding gun owners who stand proudly at the forefront of 2A Rights. If I were a tin-foil hatted conspiracy nut (well, actually ), and after reading the 'pixel-tracker' thread, I would suspect that dark forces funded by Bloomberg Buck$ were planting trackers here on MDS and elsewhere to cull data on the most visual and vocal in the fight for 2A here in the PRofMD.

Sure, there may be a jilted Ex girlfriend/wife/one-night-stand, or a Gladys Kravitz-type who will drop a dime just because they will have the force of law to wreck havoc, but considering all of the 'turd polishing' this abortion has been through, there is more to the amendments than trying to curb petty retribution ... and the bill won't stop the next looney-toon from mass murder.

Who or what is behind it all ? Occam knew ... and so did Saul Alinsky.

 

[motorcoachdoug]

It would be so funny if someone did this against Miller and Bush..... What is the MDGA going to do when people start doing this against LEO's? Dont the demorats realize a family member who they pissed off can use this against them if they own a firearm?

 

[Allen65]

It would be so funny if someone did this against Miller and Bush..... What is the MDGA going to do when people start doing this against LEO's? Dont the demorats realize a family member who they pissed off can use this against them if they own a firearm?

Hmmm, did Rack feel threatened by Sgt. Pope? Of course, in order to use HB1302's protections, it would require an admission a "dating-like" relationship involving handcuffs existed, at least for a few moments.

 

[Biggfoot44]

A cpl pages back was inquiry about what was the worst remaining features of 1302 . They aren't somthing that can be further massaged , they are inherent in the entire premise.

Mark P touched on one - The creation of a new class of citizens singled out for loss of Rights , both fundamentally and procedurally . Gun Owners

The other is the creation of a new extralegal class of citizens . Not Crazy . Not having broken any law, or planned or conspired to break any law . But somehow magically persecuted for being "Dangerous" .

We have existing procedures for emergency evaluations to determine danger to self or others .We have ( arguably already too broad) system for Protective Orders . Threatening death or bodily harm is already illegal . There isn't some gap inbetween that needs filling .

*************

Also , as has been frequently raised in both HJC and SJPC . 1302 is not ONE Bill . It is THREE Bills schizophrenically mashed together .

In turns it is a Mental Health Bill ( focusing on anti- suicide) , a Domestic Violence Bill , and an Anti- Mass Shooter Bill .

 

[Hawkeye]

So, when Sargent Pope pulls a sign out of my hand, threatens to arrest me, and does arrest my friends, you bet I'll file an action on him. When a lawman takes away my civil right of free speech, he's going to have to deal with the laws of his bosses. Although I am not one of the allowed interested persons.

No, because under the amended bill you wouldn't have standing to file a petition against Pope or whoever else unless you were dating them or otherwise one of the listed classes.

 

[Biggfoot44]

If he gets close enough , slip him the tongue , and then claim intimate partner status .

 

[danb]

Seems to me that the way the Senate amended the bill, it now follows nearly exactly parallel to a protection from abuse order § 4-501. Both in process, and those eligible to petition. EPRO they have added law enforcement and health professionals.

As I read it, the standard for a final ERPO is clear and convincing, whereas the standard for a final PFA is preponderance of evidence. Clear and convincing is a higher burden than preponderance.

The existing statute already has a provision allowing for relief including "order the respondent to surrender to law enforcement authorities any firearm in the respondent's possession, and to refrain from possession of any firearm, for the duration of the temporary protective order" for PFAs.

Seems to me, there is not a lot one can do under the Senates version of an ERPO that one cannot already do under a PFA, and the standard of proof for an ERPO for a final order is higher. ERPO adds some mental health criteria. Given the broad parallels, seems to me that they will be enforced similarly. And like, PFAs, probably used "strategically" in divorce and custody negotiations. Which is to say, abused in the same way. "Give me what I want or I will tell them about that threat and they will come for your prized guns." I don't see doctors turning in patients. Doctors will not start incentivizing patients to hide thoughts. Plus doctors always think they can help. I also don't see people turning in other family members, except in acrimonious situations, and they are probably already doing that now. Family members simply do not believe other members are actual sociopaths.

Seems to me the Senate has arrived at the same place it always does: A bunch of grandstanding, and another law that does not do much.

 

[lazarus]

Nice try Democraps!

But you forgot about abusing me by writing the 1st, 2nd and 4th Amendments out of your new Maryland law! Homey don't allow that.

See you in court, bitchez.

Huh? It looks like the 4th is still abused as hell in this bill (it ain’t a law yet and hopefully it never will be).

But I also don’t think it is inappropriate to ask if I am understanding what the bill means.

 

[zoostation]

A cpl pages back was inquiry about what was the worst remaining features of 1302 . They aren't somthing that can be further massaged , they are inherent in the entire premise.

Mark P touched on one - The creation of a new class of citizens singled out for loss of Rights , both fundamentally and procedurally . Gun Owners

The other is the creation of a new extralegal class of citizens . Not Crazy . Not having broken any law, or planned or conspired to break any law . But somehow magically persecuted for being "Dangerous" .

We have existing procedures for emergency evaluations to determine danger to self or others .We have ( arguably already too broad) system for Protective Orders . Threatening death or bodily harm is already illegal . There isn't some gap inbetween that needs filling .

*************

Also , as has been frequently raised in both HJC and SJPC . 1302 is not ONE Bill . It is THREE Bills schizophrenically mashed together .

In turns it is a Mental Health Bill ( focusing on anti- suicide) , a Domestic Violence Bill , and an Anti- Mass Shooter Bill .

I think that kind of goes along with what I have been saying. Part of this is just more incrementalism on the national scale. Today they can grab the guns from those unfortunate enough to have bitter relatives and ex-friends. Tomorrow it will be anyone who lives with anybody who is accused of being "dangerous" without trial. And so on, continuing to expand the classes of the "prohibited by accusation."

But it also lays the groundwork for three other things. 1) Getting better and more established mechanisms in place for the seizure of private firearms and 2) Getting the public used to the idea of firearms seizures becoming a more routine thing. 3) Continuing to change the social message that guns are unacceptable and something to feel embarrassed about owning.

Imagine not just the inconvenience but also the humiliation a gun owner will experience when victimized by one of these things. I'd venture to say there are more than a few members here whose collections would require the police to literally bring a small commercial truck to transport. Especially since they are taking the ammo now too. Won't that be fun for the gun owner whose neighbors get to stand outside and watch something resembling a major evidence raid that goes on for hours. The message to those neighbors and their kids will be clear. "Gun owners are bad. Don't own guns, or this type of humiliation can happen to you." (And I know, right now some screw-faced old cow from (grand)Moms Devouring Appetizers is reading this and saying "well nobody should own that many guns anyway so harumphhh").

 

[iH8DemLibz]

Not to mention announcing to the world that there's a collection of guns and ammunition at that address that's ready for the picking once criminals catch wind of it.

That's assuming the accused get their guns and ammo back.

Malice. Malice. Malice.