Have you ever had to show your "papers"?

[Wayne1one]

Sometimes the 2A "community" is its own enemy.

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You couldn't have said it better!! To answer the question, no not yet..



IMG_5624 by 556 Channel (HD), on Flickr

 

[paperwork351]

Caeb75...I remember something like that almost 20 years ago. The reporter had a meltdown on live tv and then was re-assiged to another state.

 

[Caeb75]

Caeb75...I remember something like that maybe 20 years ago. The reporter had a meltdown on live tv and then was re-assiged to another state.

Huh?

 

[PJDiesel]

Yeah....

Huh?

 

[nerfherder]

I R confused.

 

[Devil Dog]

Actually the language regarding SBRs in Maryland is such that I believe MD LEOs have the right to see your stamp (I don't have the language in front of me and am too lazy to use the Google right now).
Anyway, like pretty much everyone else here, I keep copies with me (plus cell-phone pix) and will show them to any badge who asks. But no, never been asked.
I always figured that one time I try out an SBR upper on an un-registered lower (for whatever reason) is when some random LEO will happen to stroll by my lane at range and ask to see my stamp. Hence the reason I never do that.

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[Hawkeye]

Actually the language regarding SBRs in Maryland is such that I believe MD LEOs have the right to see your stamp (I don't have the language in front of me and am too lazy to use the Google right now).

I would be very interested in specifics on that. State law that allows state or local law enforcement to look at your Federal tax records? Honestly I kind of doubt it. Are you perhaps thinking of the state machine gun registration? I can't find any law anywhere that says anything about LEOs having access to your Federal tax records in Maryland. SBRs are currently treated as handguns for the purposes of transport and use laws, and other than that MD law doesn't have much to say about them.

 

[Devil Dog]

I would be very interested in specifics on that. State law that allows state or local law enforcement to look at your Federal tax records? Honestly I kind of doubt it. Are you perhaps thinking of the state machine gun registration? I can't find any law anywhere that says anything about LEOs having access to your Federal tax records in Maryland. SBRs are currently treated as handguns for the purposes of transport and use laws, and other than that MD law doesn't have much to say about them.

I don't want to turn this into a flame war, but I find it a bit odd how people are treating NFA registration as "tax records" like a 1040 or something. The form 4 is titled "Application for Tax Paid Transfer and
Registration of Firearm" and it is the REGISTRATION portion that is of interest to the state.

Anyway, I'm working right now but when I get the chance I'll try to find the language that supports what I'm talking about. If I'm wrong about Maryland LEO having the right to inspect* I'll gladly back off my prior post, but my point in the paragraph above still stands. It is the registration that the state is interested in, not the $200 tax you paid to the feds.

*It's been awhile since I've looked at language but as I think about it it may have been more an implication than an explicit right. But with that implication comes a burden on the SBR owner to prove that his gun is properly registered with the feds. So, as a practical matter Maryland cops can ask to see your tax stamp. If you don't show it they take your SBR until you produce it.

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[BigDaddy]

"clock boy" may be suing for $15 mil for the trauma of his false arrest, but I don't see a jury awarding an old white guy any money because I lost a urination contest with a cop that was having a bad day. He can see my papers.

 

[ashershapiro]

I'd imagine it only comes up if you actually used the gun in self defense. Personally unless they were ATF I would tell them to pound sand.

 

[Devil Dog]

All right, so I'm backing off here. A Maryland LEO doesn't have an explicit right to see your papers. http://law.justia.com/codes/maryland/2005/gps/5-203.html
But since a "short-barreled rifle [must be] registered with the federal government in accordance with federal law" and in "a prosecution under this section, the defendant has the burden of proving the lawful registration of the . . . short-barreled rifle" then I think you'd be opening the door pretty wide to immediate confiscation if you failed to produce your papers when asked by a Maryland LEO.
Sure, we can get into a great discussion about Probable Cause, and I'd agree that, absent explicit law requiring that the registration be carried and produced or other facts that indicate a crime is being committed, that the mere possession of an SBR should not be PC. But I'd rather just whip out my Form 1 or Form 4 and end it right there.

So Hawkeye I stand corrected sir.


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[Hawkeye]

I don't want to turn this into a flame war, but I find it a bit odd how people are treating NFA registration as "tax records" like a 1040 or something. The form 4 is titled "Application for Tax Paid Transfer and
Registration of Firearm" and it is the REGISTRATION portion that is of interest to the state.

Yes, but the stamp is actually a tax stamp, or proof that you've paid a federal tax. It IS a tax record. A Form 4 will also register your firearm with the ATF, but the stamp itself is a tax record.

It is the registration that the state is interested in, not the $200 tax you paid to the feds.

Absolutely. However, the only people who can enforce the Federal tax and registration laws around NFA items are Federal LEOs, not state or local ones. Maryland has state level registration of "machine guns," but not of SBRs or suppressors or anything else.

All right, so I'm backing off here. A Maryland LEO doesn't have an explicit right to see your papers. http://law.justia.com/codes/maryland/2005/gps/5-203.html
But since a "short-barreled rifle [must be] registered with the federal government in accordance with federal law" and in "a prosecution under this section, the defendant has the burden of proving the lawful registration of the . . . short-barreled rifle" then I think you'd be opening the door pretty wide to immediate confiscation if you failed to produce your papers when asked by a Maryland LEO.

Yeah, this is the section that I'd be worried about.

Sure, we can get into a great discussion about Probable Cause, and I'd agree that, absent explicit law requiring that the registration be carried and produced or other facts that indicate a crime is being committed, that the mere possession of an SBR should not be PC. But I'd rather just whip out my Form 1 or Form 4 and end it right there.

Yeah, this is the rub of it - the burden of proof that the SBR is properly Federally registered is on the defendant is all it says. It doesn't say when or how you have to produce that proof, or talk at all about confiscation if you can't come up with it immediately. That doesn't mean that a cop isn't going to try to take your gun if you don't have a copy of your paperwork with it though, so that's probably the end of that.

So Hawkeye I stand corrected sir.

No big deal. I know I was making a picky argument, but I think that too many people forget that the stamp is a tax stamp, and all that goes along with that.

 

[blankford]

Now thats funny because when I got my first can I went to CA. I told the guy behind the counter I had a can asked if needed to see my F4 just because I didn't know any better. The young man told me that I was only required to show an ATF agent and have fun. I have been there a handful of times and never been asked. This was with cans, not MG's. I figure if a range asks to see my F4, I am just going to show them.
Freestate has never asked me.

It's funny reading on here about how people who used cans at OnTarget got asked by the employees there to show their papers. That is the EXACT place I would've guessed would ask to see paper when it's none of their gosh darn business. On Target drives me up the wall with how bad they are. I hate that they are the closest range (by far) to me.

I bought a suppressor from Freestate and am on day 70 of waiting for the stamp to come back. Cannot wait!

 

[Devil Dog]

Yeah, this is the rub of it - the burden of proof that the SBR is properly Federally registered is on the defendant is all it says. It doesn't say when or how you have to produce that proof, or talk at all about confiscation if you can't come up with it immediately. That doesn't mean that a cop isn't going to try to take your gun if you don't have a copy of your paperwork with it though, so that's probably the end of that.

I just don't see an upside to saying "No" to a Maryland cop (and I'm not suggesting anyone here is advocating that approach).

You stand a decent chance of having your SBR confiscated (or at least facing the threat of it; something tells me that 99.99% of the people who initially refuse would grudgingly cough up the paperwork once faced with a real threat of confiscation and possible arrest over this principle). For what? The opportunity to later show a State's Attorney and/or judge the very paperwork you refused to show the cop? That makes no sense.

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[Sundazes]

It's funny reading on here about how people who used cans at OnTarget got asked by the employees there to show their papers. That is the EXACT place I would've guessed would ask to see paper when it's none of their gosh darn business. On Target drives me up the wall with how bad they are. I hate that they are the closest range (by far) to me.

I bought a suppressor from Freestate and am on day 70 of waiting for the stamp to come back. Cannot wait!

I really dont like them either. I WILL NOT shoot there.
As for you can, for get about it. It will make the wait easier. Or get one every fews months so when the SOT calls, you have ask which can it is....
BTW, what did ya get?

 

[Hawkeye]

I just don't see an upside to saying "No" to a Maryland cop (and I'm not suggesting anyone here is advocating that approach).

You stand a decent chance of having your SBR confiscated (or at least facing the threat of it; something tells me that 99.99% of the people who initially refuse would grudgingly cough up the paperwork once faced with a real threat of confiscation and possible arrest over this principle). For what? The opportunity to later show a State's Attorney and/or judge the very paperwork you refused to show the cop? That makes no sense.

I basically agree with you there. This is one of those times when there isn't much of an upside to standing up for yourself. It's unfortunate, and wrong, but real-world, what else are you supposed to do?

Cop sees you shooting at a range with your SBR, comes over, and asks "so, is that registered?" And you're basically left with three choices of response:
1)Say "yes" and whip out your paperwork.
2)Say "yes" and try to go back to minding your own business.
3)Say "none of your business." We all know what's going to happen here.

In any case, no matter which one you choose, you're looking at the potential of staring down the wrong end of a pissed off cop if you push the issue. That rarely works out well.

That doesn't make it right, but it is what it is.

 

[PapiBarcelona]

The flip side I ASSume is I can't imagine most Maryland Police agencies letting their employees be "cowboys."

Simple Yes/No question but I get the feeling people are fear mongering being handcuffed by some off duty/possible out of jurisdiction law officer?

Wouldn't the "sarge" back at the department say "Why are you getting involved with this?" when some City cop explains why he handcuffed a guy at a gun range 50 miles away? Sounds like a good reason to get fired.

 

[Pinecone]

I basically agree with you there. This is one of those times when there isn't much of an upside to standing up for yourself. It's unfortunate, and wrong, but real-world, what else are you supposed to do?

Cop sees you shooting at a range with your SBR, comes over, and asks "so, is that registered?" And you're basically left with three choices of response:
1)Say "yes" and whip out your paperwork.
2)Say "yes" and try to go back to minding your own business.
3)Say "none of your business." We all know what's going to happen here.

I would pick option 2.

And then if he asks, show him the paperwork (or actually a copy of it).

 

[GrimReaper]

The flip side I ASSume is I can't imagine most Maryland Police agencies letting their employees be "cowboys."

Simple Yes/No question but I get the feeling people are fear mongering being handcuffed by some off duty/possible out of jurisdiction law officer?

Wouldn't the "sarge" back at the department say "Why are you getting involved with this?" when some City cop explains why he handcuffed a guy at a gun range 50 miles away? Sounds like a good reason to get fired.

Bingo

 

[PJDiesel]

"Why are you getting involved with this" is exactly right.