Happy to Reconnect with My Shotgun - Unhappy with the "Pro" who "Fitted" me

[calicojack]

When I first bought my Browning Citori CXS a few years ago - I got it fitted by Jack Bart. It just never shot right. Well last night before I shot sporting clays today, I removed the pad that Jack installed on the comb. Mounting the gun afterwards it just looked and felt much better (mid bead and front bead alignment). And lo and behold I shot much better and actually enjoyed myself today. I suspect the only reason Jack put the pad on there was so I spend some money at the pro shop where we met. I doubt it had anything to do with making the gun fit me. I think Jack Bart retired, but, if he is still around I recommend a hard pas for his services.

Anyways - I have renewed excitement for my Browning. It just feels perfect. I truly had a great time shooting clays today. I need to work on tracking some of these birds correctly, but that gun shoots and hits where I point it and is compfortable.

 

[sxs]

When I first bought my Browning Citori CXS a few years ago - I got it fitted by Jack Bart. It just never shot right. Well last night before I shot sporting clays today, I removed the pad that Jack installed on the comb. Mounting the gun afterwards it just looked and felt much better (mid bead and front bead alignment). And lo and behold I shot much better and actually enjoyed myself today. I suspect the only reason Jack put the pad on there was so I spend some money at the pro shop where we met. I doubt it had anything to do with making the gun fit me. I think Jack Bart retired, but, if he is still around I recommend a hard pas for his services.

Anyways - I have renewed excitement for my Browning. It just feels perfect. I truly had a great time shooting clays today. I need to work on tracking some of these birds correctly, but that gun shoots and hits where I point it and is compfortable.

So, when you mount the gun and point it at a clay, do you 'float' the clay or shoot to point blank. Most avid clay shooters like to float the bird with their firearms. I did that with my old BT99s when I was shooting a lot of clays back in the mid to late 80s. But I always had some trouble going from field guns (which mostly need to blot the bird) to my BT which required me to float the bird, then back again. A gell pad added to the comb of the stock usually makes the shotgun shoot a little higher like a true clays gun usually does. Removing that would likely make it point like most field guns. After selling my BTs, I have stuck to mostly all field guns for everything...hunting and clays. There are valid reasons a fitter would have for trying to keep the aim so you can float the bird.

 

[calicojack]

@sxs point blank. The bird explodes into dust.

 

[E.Shell]

I'm glad you got straightened out.

I know Jack Bart and I would honestly doubt he told you that you needed something just to sell it. He may have mistakenly thought you needed it, or perhaps you've returned to old shooting habits that changed your sight picture and/or cheek weld from your session, but I'd encourage you to give Jack the benefit of the doubt here. He is extremely well thought of in the clay bird circles and has been extremely busy for years helping people shoot better. The vast majority of skilled instructors wouldn't jeopardize their reputation at all, let alone over a small sale.

As an aside here and as a former instructor, I find that most stocks have a relatively low comb and properly fit very few people that are not exactly in the center of that "average" profile. Many people learn a "chin weld" and not a "cheek weld" early on and find a true cheek weld, where the cheekbone contacts the stock, a bit weird to get used to. Having one's jaw against the stock and not the cheekbone, seems natural to many people and helps them unconsciously adapt to the low comb. Doing this will ultimately causes a plateau on their shooting progress due to not being completely structurally stable. I was once told that I shot pretty well for doing everything wrong...

 

[calicojack]

@E.Shell Hearing this from you caries a lot of weight. Well - be that as it may - I seem to shoot better without the pad.

 

[SkiPatrolDude]

I have not been professionally fitted but I tried both a Citori and the Cynergy CX and shot much better with the Cynergy. Not to mention it was less expensive than the Citori by a decent bit. Not sure why the Cynergy isn’t more popular among Brownings line up. I know they had a rough start with them but have since worked out the kinks and design. Mine is absolutely stellar.

 

[calicojack]

I have not been professionally fitted but I tried both a Citori and the Cynergy CX and shot much better with the Cynergy. Not to mention it was less expensive than the Citori by a decent bit. Not sure why the Cynergy isn’t more popular among Brownings line up. I know they had a rough start with them but have since worked out the kinks and design. I’ve Mine is absolutely stellar.

Good to know there are at least some Browning fans here. This place just seems to be all-in for Beretta. Nothing wrong with that - just don't see a lot of love for Browning around here.

As far as the Cynergy goes; a few years ago everyone (esp. here on MDS) strongly advised against buying the Cynergy because of huge problems that Browning had with them. I am wondering if Browning ever recovered from that.

Heck - there are some folks that won't buy Browning because of the salted stock problems they had many years ago.

As for me - I am happy with Browning. I have a Browning lever action 22 and a T-bolt; both have excellent craftsmanship and accuracy. You cannot find a steel receiver 22 lever gun any more other than the one Browning makes. Everyone else uses a zinc-alloy pot metal for their rimfire lever gun.

 

[calicojack]

@SkiPatrolDude Also good to know that the Cynergy is a solid option as well.

 

[SkiPatrolDude]

@SkiPatrolDude Also good to know that the Cynergy is a solid option as well.

I am not a shotgun snob, but I'm a bit of a gun snob in general. That said, my first O/U (and first firearm) was a Charles Daly model 106 made in Turkey. I think I paid less than $250 for it. It shot true, but I legitimately had to break the action open over my legs lol. It never loosened up over thousands of rounds either and the trigger was a dog. I then shot my friends Belgium FN O/U (the precursor to the Superposed) and that then started me down the path of getting something better. Ended up with the Cynergy and absolutely love it. Last time I was at Loch Raven Trap & Skeet I was shooting alongside someone with a fitted Perazi and he was hitting 17's and 18's and I was hitting 23's and 25's and we got to talking and traded guns for a round. He shot ALL 25 clays with the Cynergy lol and I only hit 15 with the Perrazi. I KNOW the Perazzi is miles nicer, but that was a funny experience for me.

 

[28Shooter]

So you guys like the Cynergy. I never shot one but I shouldered one at the local gunshop and it really felt right. Any problems with them? The Internet warriors pan it all the time.

 

[sxs]

So you guys like the Cynergy. I never shot one but I shouldered one at the local gunshop and it really felt right. Any problems with them? The Internet warriors pan it all the time.

I don't have a Cynergy,....I have a Citori 3" Hunter from the late 80s. However, I have handled them. The ones I handled came up a lot like like my Citori. Now I haven't fired them at clays or on pattern paper, so I don't know what the point of impact is like. Most Beretta guys feel Brownings don't fit them and vice versa. I do also own a Guerini Magnus Light (3" Hunting gun instead of for clays...this why they are made to lighter weights). That gun comes up pretty much like my Citori. The main difference is the Guerini patterns a bit high (not nearly as high as most clays guns except maybe some sporting clays specific guns... Probably about 60%/40%) whereas the Citori has a out a point of impact approximately centered. I did buy a used, but like new, Beretta Silver Pigeon for a good price a number of years back. I loved the look of the gun but didn't shoot it that well, after several outings, I just sold it for about what I had into it to a fellow MDSer

 

[fabsroman]

Good to know there are at least some Browning fans here. This place just seems to be all-in for Beretta. Nothing wrong with that - just don't see a lot of love for Browning around here.

As far as the Cynergy goes; a few years ago everyone (esp. here on MDS) strongly advised against buying the Cynergy because of huge problems that Browning had with them. I am wondering if Browning ever recovered from that.

Heck - there are some folks that won't buy Browning because of the salted stock problems they had many years ago.

As for me - I am happy with Browning. I have a Browning lever action 22 and a T-bolt; both have excellent craftsmanship and accuracy. You cannot find a steel receiver 22 lever gun any more other than the one Browning makes. Everyone else uses a zinc-alloy pot metal for their rimfire lever gun.

I won't buy a Browning because of the rusted chambers/barrels I had many moons ago in 1994/1995, when a Beretta with chrome lined barrels could be had for the same price. The LOP was longer on the Beretta too and it just fit me better. Since then, pretty much been all Beretta and Benelli for me. If Browning works for you, that is great. Beretta and Benelli have been working for me for almost 30 years now. Doubt I am going to buy anything other than a Beretta or Benelli going forward.

As far as Jack Bart is concerned, I second what E.Shell said. I doubt Jack was trying to sell you anything he didn't think you needed just so he could make a sale. There is a reason he has been involved in the shooting sports for such a long time and made a living doing it. Who knows, maybe he thought you wanted to get fit to shoot trap, where almost everybody floats the bird above the bead. Different fitment versus sporting clays/skeet. I have a dedicated trap gun to float the bird above the bead. All my other shotguns are fitted so that I have to cover the bird. Kind of sucks on hard right to left crossers because I have to somewhat guess on the amount of lead as the barrel is obscuring the bird, but I do alright somehow.

 

[calicojack]

@fabsroman good to know that Jack meant well and is well-regarded.

 

[sxs]

I won't buy a Browning because of the rusted chambers/barrels I had many moons ago in 1994/1995, when a Beretta with chrome lined barrels could be had for the same price. The LOP was longer on the Beretta too and it just fit me better. Since then, pretty much been all Beretta and Benelli for me. If Browning works for you, that is great. Beretta and Benelli have been working for me for almost 30 years now. Doubt I am going to buy anything other than a Beretta or Benelli going forward.

As far as Jack Bart is concerned, I second what E.Shell said. I doubt Jack was trying to sell you anything he didn't think you needed just so he could make a sale. There is a reason he has been involved in the shooting sports for such a long time and made a living doing it. Who knows, maybe he thought you wanted to get fit to shoot trap, where almost everybody floats the bird above the bead. Different fitment versus sporting clays/skeet. I have a dedicated trap gun to float the bird above the bead. All my other shotguns are fitted so that I have to cover the bird. Kind of sucks on hard right to left crossers because I have to somewhat guess on the amount of lead as the barrel is obscuring the bird, but I do alright somehow.

Wow! Wonder how you ended up with rusted chambers and barrels? When I am shooting very frequently I don't clean my barrels everytime after I shoot. In addition, at least once I let the gun sit in my safe for over a month after going shooting without cleaning it (unusual for me). The latter time I intended to clean it the next day or so but let it slip my mind. I have never seen a sign of rust. To be sure, when I have hunted in rain or around water (as in Waterfowl hunting) I have always given my gun a thorough wipe down and cleaning immediately. I actually have several Brownings....the aforementioned 12 ga Citori Hunter and a fairly recently acquired (2 or 3 years ago) 20 ga White Satin Hunter. These are in addition to a BSS, 3 Browning A5s (a Light 12, Mag 12 and a newer A5 in 3.5"). None of them have had rust issues. Brownings certain had some bad issues in the mid 60s to early 70s with salt wood and had some issues with the A500s with shell cycling (I had one of those for quite a few years. Had the trigger replaced under recall and the cycling problem fixed under warrantee and no more issues for the 20 years I owned it). To be sure, there can be something said for chrome lined bores. But they can also be a problem like any other shotgun if you don't keep threads clean under the tubes (not speaking to you in particular Fabs, but for others who may not think of it, always remove your choke tubes after cleaning your barrels, clean the threaded area and at least use oil before reinserting although I prefer a light coating of choke tube thread grease ). Never had issues getting my tubes out as a result. I can't tell you how many shotties I saw while working at Scott's that had tubes seized up because the owner never cleaned under the tubes (usually due to rusting in place). Some of those guns had chrome lined barrels. It seems that threading the inside of the barrel cuts through the chrome lining. So you can clean the barrel without removing the tubes then still end up with issues.
Waterfowl hunters around salt or brackish water seem to have the worst problems. I swear, I sometimes wonder if some guys don't use their shotguns as paddles or outright drop them in the water (because it isn't unusual for them to have rust all throughout the action if they have stuck tubes)

 

[calicojack]

After re-reading the thread belong maybe we have more Browning fans than I thought, or perhaps the Beretta crowd is just a bit louder:

Recommendations: Over/Under for Trap and Skeet Under $5K

Hi All, I've been using a Beretta AL391 for about the last 10 years to shoot primarily trap with an occasional round of skeet. I'm looking to purchase an over/under shotgun for both trap and skeet. I like to think I don't have too many requirements, but they are: - Type: Over/under - Budget...

www.mdshooters.com

 

[Doco Overboard]

Waterfowl hunters around salt or brackish water seem to have the worst problems. I swear, I sometimes wonder if some guys don't use their shotguns as paddles or outright drop them in the water (because it isn't unusual for them to have rust all throughout the action if they have stuck tubes)

Thats just what they do use them for paddles and put them overboard somehow.
Just the salts, from the hands of someone handling shot shells, and then shooting them will cause chamber rust.
It's actually amazing how little maintenance people do.
Proud of it too evidently from what I gather.
I shot with someone over to Pintail the other week and they had little nubs for screws where the buttplate was.
100 rounds later he said his shoulder hurt, go figure.

 

[teratos]

Good to know there are at least some Browning fans here. This place just seems to be all-in for Beretta. Nothing wrong with that - just don't see a lot of love for Browning around here.

I love Brownings. I have 4 Belgian O/Us. A 32” Broadway (F/IM), A 30” (F/M) Lightening in 12g, A 28” skeet 12g Citori, A 26” 20g Citori.

The Broadway is the first good shotgun I bought, and is still the gun I shoot trap with.

I have a BT-99, and an A-bolt in .270 I’m taking pig hunting.

I have 4 Belgian Safari grade rifles in .375 H&H mag, 7mm Rem mag, .338 Win mag, and .243.

And a Belgian made Hi-Power from 1974.

That’s all I can think of.

 

[calicojack]

I love Brownings. I have 4 Belgian O/Us. A 32” Broadway (F/IM), A 30” (F/M) Lightening in 12g, A 28” skeet 12g Citori, A 26” 20g Citori.

The Broadway is the first good shotgun I bought, and is still the gun I shoot trap with.

I have a BT-99, and an A-bolt in .270 I’m taking pig hunting.

I have 4 Belgian Safari grade rifles in .375 H&H mag, 7mm Rem mag, .338 Win mag, and .243.

And a Belgian made Hi-Power from 1974.

That’s all I can think of.

Nice!! I want a 20 gauge Citori - but I am not quite there yet. I want to continue to improve with my 12 gauge first.

 

[teratos]

Nice!! I want a 20 gauge Citori - but I am not quite there yet. I want to continue to improve with my 12 gauge first.

The 20g is skeet. Oh, I also have a Browning Maxus II Wicked Wing 3-1/2 Mag. I was going to say I don’t own a shotgun with a removable choke, but I remembered that one. It’s my waterfowl hunting gun. You can drop it in the bay and hose it down. First time I took it out, I got tripped up by a log, and fell into the water. It was early wood duck, so luckily the water was warm. Gun went right down into the mud.

Still worked. Took it apart when I got home, disassembled, lots of mud. Hosed it out, dried, good as new.

 

[sxs]

The 20g is skeet. Oh, I also have a Browning Maxus II Wicked Wing 3-1/2 Mag. I was going to say I don’t own a shotgun with a removable choke, but I remembered that one. It’s my waterfowl hunting gun. You can drop it in the bay and hose it down. First time I took it out, I got tripped up by a log, and fell into the water. It was early wood duck, so luckily the water was warm. Gun went right down into the mud.

Still worked. Took it apart when I got home, disassembled, lots of mud. Hosed it out, dried, good as new.

Good as new because you took care of it right away. BTW you can hose off most firearms without issue. Just blow it off real well after with an air compressor and relube