Handgun bullets in carbine length barrels

[joppaj]

My post in the Baltimore Confiscated Gun thread and some of the replies got me really thinking about this. Like most people, I really like the idea of a PCC that uses the same mags and bullets as my handgun. I don't however want to experience failure of the round (core/ jacket separation etc) because I pushed the rounds faster than they were designed to go.

This is a standing question I have about ammo construction. Those rounds were designed for a handgun. Will the extra barrel length have any impact on how well the bullet performs?

give this site a try iirc, up to a point, longer bbls increase muzzle velocity

BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: Home

(statement of intent)

www.ballisticsbytheinch.com

Good question and line of inquiry ! The answer is maybe , sometimes , it depends , and probably .

The bottom line comes down to velocity , both muzzle and impact . Start searching published and individuals on the internet with velocity charts of loads from pistol and carbine , and you'll quickly see Carbine velocities are a total wild card .

If handloading , slow for caliber powders in the neighborhood of Blue Dot will give major velocity increases , fast powders approaching Bullseye hardly any . Factory loads you'd pretty much have to chronograph that particular lot of ammunition to see what you get . Arbitrary numbers ( but close enough for discussion ) are that Carbine vs service length pistol velocity difference could range from 100- 400 fps increase .

At the bottom end of that range , it would be shooting standard pressure of whatever , would be similar to the +P version of same projectile from service length pistol .

( Me pontificating ) Most premium grade Bonded or controlled expansion duty type ammo of 124 and heavier , will probably do * not terrible * from carbine .

( Me pontificating) XTP of 124 & heavier will probably do better out of Carbine than pistol .

( Me pontificating , plus exhibiting prejudice ) Most 147 gr will do better from Carbine than pistol . Trivia - The very first 147 gr load to achieve LE popularity was the W-W 147 OSM
It was actually developed and intended for SMG use , until FBI repurposed it for their Handguns .

( Me pontificating ) It's probably only those light bullet loads with a reputation for fragmemting or otherwise gross under penetration from pistols , that should purposefully be avoided in Carbine .



And of course , distance is an issue . IF the inherent greater practical accuracy of a shoulder weapon is being utilized to stretch out to 50 , 75 , 100 , whstever yards , impact velocities can be back down to those of pistols at ( average interpersonal ranges ) .

 

[joppaj]

This was less of an issue for me when I had lever actions chambered for .44 magnum. Since the handgun was a Ruger Super Blackhawk, we could already load very hot rounds and the carbine handled them just fine of course.

 

[TheOriginalMexicanBob]

I run 9mm +P+ hollow points through my Colt 9mm Carbine. I can't say whether the added velocity would add to the pain on the receiving end or not. All I know is I asked Colt whether the carbine was rated for the +P+ rounds and was told "Blast away!"

 

[Magnumite]

Much of that worry has more to do with bullet construction coupled with driving the bullet at the wrong speed. When the jacket ends up on or just over the shank of a bullet, the bullet can separate when driven too fast or too slow. This is because the lead core is denser than the jacket. The momentum produced overcomes the jacket roll over tension and friction of the jacket with the bore. This is more a handloader issue than a factory loading issue.

The 9mm Parabellum’s case capacity is also limited and this limits how much velocity is a hieved in a carbine barrel. Stick with full jacketed or full jacketed hollow points and you should be fine.

 

[Squaregrouper]

This can be an issue with plated bullets, but I don't see it being a problem with jacketed bullets unless they're really moving fast. One of my fun loads is a RMR 124gr Nuke @ 1450-1475fps out of a .357 Sig. I have never had issues with jacket separation.
Conversely, I bought some .452 250gr XTP bullets for a .450 Bushmaster. These were designed as a pistol round (.45LC) and sending them at 2200fps could be an issue because it would be well above the designed speed rating for the projectile.

 

[Growler215]

I think the fast burning powders used in most magazine fed pistol rounds mean they won't go that much faster in a pcc. Some are reported to go a bit slower due to increased friction.

 

[smokey]

There are some bullets that are tough by design and tend to have deep penetration out of handguns. I'd think these are great candidates for a pcc. Some that come to mind are all copper dpx loads and hornady critical duty.

The dpx loads have great penetration and expansion normally, but you don't have to worry about core separation. The only thing that might happen is a petal breaking off, but I haven't seen tests showing that.

Critical duty uses harder lead alloys and mechanically bonds them to the jacked with a thick interlocking band around the base. Typically they don't expand a ton and penetrate out to 18". They'd probably show better performance, with more expansion and less penetration, pushed faster.

 

[smokey]

I think the fast burning powders used in most magazine fed pistol rounds mean they won't go that much faster in a pcc. Some are reported to go a bit slower due to increased friction.

What goes slower? Heavy for caliber are more efficient at shorter barrel lengths and light for caliber(especially +p & +p+) benefit more from more barrel.

 

[Boats]

guys:

There are plenty of rifle rounds that are jacketed that move at twice or three times the speed of handgun rounds, that don't strip their jackets.

Even a hot 10mm out of a PCC should be fine

 

[Growler215]

View attachment 456483
What goes slower? Heavy for caliber are more efficient at shorter barrel lengths and light for caliber(especially +p & +p+) benefit more from more barrel.

Interesting.

Also interesting that they tested +P ammo in a Sub2K. The owners manual for mine says not to do that.

 

[Bafflingbs]

My post in the Baltimore Confiscated Gun thread and some of the replies got me really thinking about this. Like most people, I really like the idea of a PCC that uses the same mags and bullets as my handgun. I don't however want to experience failure of the round (core/ jacket separation etc) because I pushed the rounds faster than they were designed to go.

I use Underwood’s 68gr. +P Extreme Defense solid copper rounds, in both my pistols and my PCC 9mm’s. A YouTube’r shot them through a 16” barrel, at 2,600fps. They’re rated for 1,800fps. through a pistol. At 2,600, they’re putting out 1,020ft. lbs. of energy. Nasty little boogers

 

[outrider58]

As a reloader, I've always tried to avoid plated bullets, especially in my 11" SBR, even though I mostly stay subsonic in that.

 

[Biggfoot44]

This is a standing question I have about ammo construction. Those rounds were designed for a handgun. Will the extra barrel length have any impact on how well the bullet performs?

He must have been reading this thread , because yesterday Tools & Targets just posted a video testing 9mm from 16.5 inch Carbine at 27 yard distance and heavy clothing barrier . ( If you're not familiar, he has very thick southern accent , but his testing protocols are very consistent. )

124 +P Critical Duty

1175 - Advertised from pistol
1348 - 5rd average from carbine
18.0 inch penetration
.460 expansion


135 +P Ctitical Duty

1110 - Advertised from pistol
1215 - 5rd average from carbine
18.5 inch penetration
.454 expansion


Both performed well ( or at least , just as expected by Critical Duty users ) . No adverse results from longer bbl .

124 gained 173 fps , 135 gained 105 fps , again showing randomness , and lack of any rules of thumb .


Either would have near identical terminal performance, but the 124 would have more improvement of trajectory for 50- 100 yd distances.

 

[calicojack]

give this site a try iirc, up to a point, longer bbls increase muzzle velocity

BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: Home

(statement of intent)

www.ballisticsbytheinch.com

They also graph the increase in energy in foot pounds. Energy is a function of velocity squared. Even a 12 or 15% increase in velocity can amount to a significant increase in energy (foot pounds). Looking at the energy graphs, going from a 4" barrel pistol to a 16" PCC will boost the energy of a 9mm from 400 foot pounds to about 600 foot pounds. (If I read the graph correctly).

 

[calicojack]

This from a study by the department of justice:

"The carbine barrel length does not improve the interior, exterior, or terminal ballistics of many popular hollowpoints at all, but the carbine barrel length does push some 9mm hollowpoints into the .357 Magnum bracket in terms of velocity, energy, wound ballistics, and tactical penetration."

Nine Millimeter Carbine Ballistics | Office of Justice Programs

www.ojp.gov

 

[calicojack]

This is a standing question I have about ammo construction. Those rounds were designed for a handgun. Will the extra barrel length have any impact on how well the bullet performs?

I did some simple physics calculations. From BBTI we site; Cor Bon 9mm 125 grain +P. The increase in velocity going from a 4" handgun, to a 16" PCC is 1126 ft/sec to 1430 ft/sec, which is a 16% increase. But the energy in foot pounds goes from 417 ft-pounds to 567 ft-pounds which is a whopping 36% increase in energy.

 

[Bisleyfan44]

guys:

There are plenty of rifle rounds that are jacketed that move at twice or three times the speed of handgun rounds, that don't strip their jackets.

Even a hot 10mm out of a PCC should be fine

Remember bullet mfgs design their bullets for specific velocity windows. 300 Win Mag bullets are designed for that expected velocity. 9mm Luger bullets likewise. Jacket bonding/locking/design are very different caliber to caliber.

 

[Bisleyfan44]

There are some bullets that are tough by design and tend to have deep penetration out of handguns. I'd think these are great candidates for a pcc. Some that come to mind are all copper dpx loads and hornady critical duty.

The dpx loads have great penetration and expansion normally, but you don't have to worry about core separation. The only thing that might happen is a petal breaking off, but I haven't seen tests showing that.

Critical duty uses harder lead alloys and mechanically bonds them to the jacked with a thick interlocking band around the base. Typically they don't expand a ton and penetrate out to 18". They'd probably show better performance, with more expansion and less penetration, pushed faster.

I think the Gold Dots would be pretty good as well. Their jacket is chemically bonded to the lead core.

Barnes XPB, Lehigh Defense Extreme Penetrator/Defender would be great too.

 

[smokey]

I think the Gold Dots would be pretty good as well. Their jacket is chemically bonded to the lead core.

Barnes XPB, Lehigh Defense Extreme Penetrator/Defender would be great too.

Gold dots are cool, but I've seen them overexpand and turn in to little comet looking things.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Remember bullet mfgs design their bullets for specific velocity windows.

Hornaday publishes the velocity windows for each specific XTP projectile. ( They're kind of optimistic about getting expansion at the Low end of their windows , but it shows their goal and intentions . And the opposite end of the spectrum of OP's concerns .)