Gun Trust Questions

[Merlin]

According to the ATF, as long as the replacement parts return the firearm to original condition it doesn't lose its C&R status. They understand that barrels wear out and other parts break as well.

So I guess at the end of the day they go by the frame or main part that has the SN? If the frame was made in 1920 and the slide was made in 1970, they go by the frame that was made 1920. Correct?

 

[Walter]

News Flash: Most MDS forum users really do not want to participate in or see threads that consist of illegal activity on the forum. When you ask for advice and then get it from a bunch of people that know better, don't think of it as getting your balls busted. Just take it.

Look. I know criminals are dumb, but they arent coming to gun forums to figure out how to break the law. I'm sure they dont need MDS to figure out that gun they bought from their local neighborhood crack dealer, with the serial number obliterated, is illegal

My rant wasn't specifically about this thread. I've seen the same thing other times on here. A newcomer comes along with a question and then the forum jumps on them with accusations flying. Thats what I meant by busting your balls. It turns new people away when they ask something and are immediately accused of wanting to break the law. Hell it happened to me.

People dont post here because they want to know how to break the law. They post here because they want to stay within the law. So be nice to them and dont respond like assholes.

 

[Merlin]

Everyone is giving good advice to the OP, as far as I understand the laws and regulations; however, there are a few posts where the terms "possess(ion)" and "transfer" seem to have been mixed up.

Consider this: If I take my 13-year-old son to the range, he is legally allowed to possess a regulated weapon for the purposes of target practice under my supervision. Therefore, it is NOT always illegal for a minor to "possess" a regulated firearm.

There is also language in the law that seems to allow minors to inherit, but not possess, regulated firearms.

I Am NOT a Lawyer! But here's the law that pertains to persons under 21:

(d) Possession by person under age of 21 years prohibited; exceptions. --

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2) of this subsection, a person who is under the age of 21 years may not possess a regulated firearm.

(2) Unless a person is otherwise prohibited from possessing a regulated firearm, this subsection does not apply to:

(i) the temporary transfer or possession of a regulated firearm if the person is:

1. under the supervision of another who is at least 21 years old and who is not prohibited by State or federal law from possessing a firearm; and

2. acting with the permission of the parent or legal guardian of the transferee or person in possession;

(ii) the transfer by inheritance of title, and not of possession, of a regulated firearm;

(iii) a member of the armed forces of the United States or the National Guard while performing official duties;

(iv) the temporary transfer or possession of a regulated firearm if the person is:

1. participating in marksmanship training of a recognized organization; and

2. under the supervision of a qualified instructor;

(v) a person who is required to possess a regulated firearm for employment and who holds a permit under Subtitle 3 of this title; or

(vi) the possession of a firearm for self-defense or the defense of others against a trespasser into the residence of the person in possession or into a residence in which the person in possession is an invited guest.​

All true and what is your point? this all talks about the person that is under age being under the supervision of another over 21 and/or acting with the permission of the parent or legal guardian while under their supervision.

That is not the case here. This guy wants to figure out a way to have possession of an regulated firearm and be under age in the state of Maryland. It's not legal and everything you copied and pasted here does not talk about what he wants to do nor does it have anything to do with what he is being told.

 

[Merlin]

Look. I know criminals are dumb, but they arent coming to gun forums to figure out how to break the law. I'm sure they dont need MDS to figure out that gun they bought from their local neighborhood crack dealer, with the serial number obliterated, is illegal

My rant wasn't specifically about this thread. I've seen the same thing other times on here. A newcomer comes along with a question and then the forum jumps on them with accusations flying. Thats what I meant by busting your balls. It turns new people away when they ask something and are immediately accused of wanting to break the law. Hell it happened to me.

People dont post here because they want to know how to break the law. They post here because they want to stay within the law. So be nice to them and dont respond like assholes.

And sometimes the poster to this site are not the brightest in the world either. The OP either does know what he is asking is illegal and is looking for a seemingly legal way to do something that he should not do, or he knows very well it is illegal and is still looking for a seemingly legal way to get the job done.

Either way it's not smart and it's all happening here. You not being able to see that for yourself the wattage of your bulb is in question.

 

[Walter]

And sometimes the poster to this site are not the brightest in the world either. The OP either does know what he is asking is illegal and is looking for a seemingly legal way to do something that he should not do, or he knows very well it is illegal and is still looking for a seemingly legal way to get the job done.

Either way it's not smart and it's all happening here. You not being able to see that for yourself the wattage of your bulb is in question.

Or he was really excited about getting a handgun..just as I was..and wanted to know if he could get one legally while being under 21..just like I wanted to..

Now the last person who should be questioning someone else's intelligence is the guy who still hasn't learned how to use multi-quote and has to have the mods merge his quotes for him

 

[Merlin]

Or he was really excited about getting a handgun..just as I was..and wanted to know if he could get one legally while being under 21..just like I wanted to..

Now the last person who should be questioning someone else's intelligence is the guy who still hasn't learned how to use multi-quote and has to have the mods merge his quotes for him

Because you think multi-quoting is the most impotent issue here.

We all were excited to get our first gun. I'm 54 and I'm still excited when I buy a new gun. But the law is the law. I knew it when I was 20 and so does he.

The problem is that someone gave him a little info on Trusts as well as suggested it is a way of bending or getting around laws and rules so now he is following up and researching it. It's not good advice, and any advice that anyone gives him that does not include the the statement of he should just wait until he is 21 to buy his regulated guns, is giving him very bad advice.

As far as the multi-quoting issue, it would be nice if I had as much time as you clearly do to scan through all of the posts so I can group them all together so people like you can read everything in one post instead of three. But I respond to them when I can read them. I hope your OK with that.

 

[Walter]

Because you think multi-quoting is the most impotent issue here.

We all were excited to get our first gun. I'm 54 and I'm still excited when I buy a new gun. But the law is the law. I knew it when I was 20 and so does he.

The problem is that someone gave him a little info on Trusts as well as suggested it is a way of bending or getting around laws and rules so now he is following up and researching it. It's not good advice, and any advice that anyone gives him that does not include the the statement of he should just wait until he is 21 to buy his regulated guns, is giving him very bad advice.

As far as the multi-quoting issue, it would be nice if I had as much time as you clearly do to scan through all of the posts so I can group them all together so people like you can read everything in one post instead of three. But I respond to them when I can read them. I hope your OK with that.

Maybe I picked a bad thread to rant in because it looks like the OP posted about this before and ignored the information given to him previously. In that case he deserved the responses he got this time around.

But anyway, my problem isn't telling new people that what they asked is illegal. Just don't douchebags when you tell them.

I've seen it here before. Noob comes along, asks a question, and people start responding to them like they're criminals who willingly wanting to break the law. It happened to me when I first joined and I was like wow these guys are assholes. All I'm doing is asking a question and I'm being accused of wanting to break the law. So I can definitely see how a new person might be turned away.

 

[ThatGuy179]

You can only tell someone something politely so many times before you have to set them straight. For someone who says they were pre law he definitely wasn't the brightest when being explained the law. My .02

 

[huntman21014]

I posted in the NFA section before I found this section and have PM'ed a moderator to merge the threads and I posted them within a few minutes of each other.

Like someone else said I was just seeing if there was a way to get the process started before I turned 21. I wasn't even going to take possession of the gun until I turned 21. I just wanted it purchased and the NFA paperwork to get started. No I am not made of money but had planned on getting a .22 supressor as well as a .22 pistol and getting the tax stamps out of the way.

My original question, and I know I did not make this clear, but was to start the process and have the handgun bought in the trust so that when I turn 21 everything would be done and I wouldn't have to be then starting fresh.

My dad is in PA and my mom is in MD and I split time in each state almost evenly and in PA my dad could gift me a handgun without even getting a FFL or sheriff involved for transfers. He would purchase the handgun as a gift and just give it to me, no questions asked. This as I have found out is illegal in MD and I wasn't trying to circumvent that at all. I just wanted everything done and in order so it wouldn't be 9 more months on top of the months until I turn 21.

I should have tried to make myself clear a little better but I did feel like I was attacked and labelled a criminal because I was asking some questions. I never intended to take possession of the gun alone until I was 21. If the gun was in the trust and I was with someone who was over 21 I could shoot it at a range or on private property, but it would need to be supervised.

I received some information from a police officer so when I was told conflicting information here I questioned it. Not to try and get around any laws but just to clarify and make sure I understood what everyone was saying. I am sorry that I didn't make things clear and hope I have now made things clearer about what I was trying to accomplish.

TL;DR Wanted to cut 18+ months waiting down without breaking any laws and didn't know how to make that clear.

 

[JustCuz]

All true and what is your point? this all talks about the person that is under age being under the supervision of another over 21 and/or acting with the permission of the parent or legal guardian while under their supervision.

That is not the case here. This guy wants to figure out a way to have possession of an regulated firearm and be under age in the state of Maryland. It's not legal and everything you copied and pasted here does not talk about what he wants to do nor does it have anything to do with what he is being told.

Two Points: First, it is not necessarily illegal for a person under 21 to "possess" a firearm, as others have stated. I apologize if this seems like nit-picking to you, but we're talking about the law, so accuracy is important.

Second, if the OP so desperately wants to start a collection of regulated firearms now -- perhaps because certain immediate opportunities exist or because he fears that citizens' rights to purchase such firearms are in imminent danger of being revoked -- it MAY be possible for him to do so with his parents' help, as he did make mention of a trust with another person over the age of 21. Again, I am not a lawyer, and I respect our friend Mr. Shackleford, but there may be a legal avenue under which his parents could take part in the building of that collection with him without the risk of being considered a straw purchase. Since I don't know the OP's exact circumstances, I provided the full section of the law that lists the conditions under which persons under 21 may legally possess firearms. Perhaps one of those caveats fits his situation. I don't know, and neither do you.

 

[Lex Armarum]

This ^^ Whole thing smells. Federal law prohibits the sale of a handgun or its ammo to anyone under 21. You can't purchase it in PA either, legally, from a FFL. Wait til you are 21 and don't try to play this game. 9 months is nothing. Why in the world would you want to risk anything when the possible consequence is not only jail time (see Rusty's point) but a life time ban on possession of *any* firearm (save muzzle loading black power guns or C&R).

Thanks for completing my thoughts! Seriously, that is exactly what I was thinking but at 1am, my mind couldn't put it all together.

 

[huntman21014]

I understand and didn't mean to imply I wanted to take possession of the gun by myself until I was 21, I just wanted it purchased and all the paperwork done and I did not do a good job of making that clear.

 

[Merlin]

Maybe I picked a bad thread to rant in because it looks like the OP posted about this before and ignored the information given to him previously. In that case he deserved the responses he got this time around.

But anyway, my problem isn't telling new people that what they asked is illegal. Just don't douchebags when you tell them.

I've seen it here before. Noob comes along, asks a question, and people start responding to them like they're criminals who willingly wanting to break the law. It happened to me when I first joined and I was like wow these guys are assholes. All I'm doing is asking a question and I'm being accused of wanting to break the law. So I can definitely see how a new person might be turned away.

I understand what you mean. Sometimes it happened to me as well. Also some tempers are high because of the new stay.

But in this case where a 20yo is asking the same questions in two different threads of how come he can't pull this off by using a trust and many try to explain he can't because it's illegal, and then the 20yo keeps coming back with What if, what if, its childish.

The advice is wait until your old enough and keep yourself out of trouble. It's very good advice and anyone mature enough to own a gun could see that.

 

[huntman21014]

I understand what you mean. Sometimes it happened to me as well. Also some tempers are high because of the new stay.

But in this case where a 20yo is asking the same questions in two different threads of how come he can't pull this off by using a trust and many try to explain he can't because it's illegal, and then the 20yo keeps coming back with What if, what if, its childish.

The advice is wait until your old enough and keep yourself out of trouble. It's very good advice and anyone mature enough to own a gun could see that.

I wasn't asking how to take possession of the regulated firearm until I was of legal age, I was trying to find out if it could be in the trust with myself in the trust as well and I have found out that only a lawyer can really answer that question. I have asked a moderator to merge the other thread as I didn't know which place the thread should be and had it closed. I wasn't trying to ask the same question twice to get around a law. Just whether or not the handgun could be purchased then either my name be in the trust or added when I was 21. Never did I ask for any advice on how to buy one by myself but just have the purchase out of the way.

 

[Merlin]

I wasn't asking how to take possession of the regulated firearm until I was of legal age, I was trying to find out if it could be in the trust with myself in the trust as well and I have found out that only a lawyer can really answer that question. I have asked a moderator to merge the other thread as I didn't know you y place the thread should be and had it closed. I wasn't trying to askasknser the same question twice to get around a law. Just whether or not the handgun could be purchased then either my name be in the trust or added when I was 21. Never did I ask for any advice on how to buy one by myself but just have the purchpurchpase out of the way.

Answer me this, if you know you can't take possession of the gun until your 21, why do you care if a trust your name is connected to can buy a gun?

 

[Lex Armarum]

Now now, everyone cool down or else I'm going to start handing out hurt feelings reports. For my part, I understand the nature of the OPs question but, the fact is, he asked his question in such a way that it gave the impression (very strong impression) that he was asking for advice on how to circumvent the law. All of the clarifications and arguments thereafter did nothing to clarify the issue and several VERY learned people chimed in giving the OP decisive and correct answers.

Neither the OP nor anyone else should get butt hurt because people who know gave direct and assertive responses.

 

[Lex Armarum]

I wasn't asking how to take possession of the regulated firearm until I was of legal age, I was trying to find out if it could be in the trust with myself in the trust as well and I have found out that only a lawyer can really answer that question. I have asked a moderator to merge the other thread as I didn't know which place the thread should be and had it closed. I wasn't trying to ask the same question twice to get around a law. Just whether or not the handgun could be purchased then either my name be in the trust or added when I was 21. Never did I ask for any advice on how to buy one by myself but just have the purchase out of the way.

Here's the thing. Even if you got a trust, you STILL couldn't have access to the firearm. At most you could be listed as a Beneficiary on the trust until you come of legal age and Beneficiaries CANNOT access the trust property without the consent and supervision of the Trustee (firearms specific situation). Moreover, I don't even want to broach the topic of a "prohibited person" (by age) serving as the Settlor of a trust that contains property that the Settlor is prohibited from possessing!!!!!!

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE OP, let this issue drop and bide your time until you are 21. This is a public forum that ANYONE (including cops, robbers, and judges) can read and, boy, you've given them a platter ready case to serve before the Court regardless of whether you "meant" it.

 

[esqappellate]

Here's the thing. Even if you got a trust, you STILL couldn't have access to the firearm. At most you could be listed as a Beneficiary on the trust until you come of legal age and Beneficiaries CANNOT access the trust property without the consent and supervision of the Trustee (firearms specific situation). Moreover, I don't even want to broach the topic of a "prohibited person" (by age) serving as the Settlor of a trust that contains property that the Settlor is prohibited from possessing!!!!!!

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE OP, let this issue drop and bide your time until you are 21. This is a public forum that ANYONE (including cops, robbers, and judges) can read and, boy, you've given them a platter ready case to serve before the Court regardless of whether you "meant" it.

I could not agree more. OP you just got some fine free legal advice from very good counsel Savor it cuz it is unlikely to happen again

 

[huntman21014]

I hear you loud and clear and was just trying to find out the specifics and I thank everyone for their answers. The law between here and PA is very different and I did not realize how different they were until now. My only options are to wait or have my father in PA purchase the gun as a gift and not give it to me until I turn 21. I by no means meant to cause any problems here.

 

[Lex Armarum]

I hear you loud and clear and was just trying to find out the specifics and I thank everyone for their answers. The law between here and PA is very different and I did not realize how different they were until now. My only options are to wait or have my father in PA purchase the gun as a gift and not give it to me until I turn 21. I by no means meant to cause any problems here.

Good. Do not think that you caused any problems. As far as I can see, you asked a misguided question and were promptly and thoroughly corrected. No harm, no foul.