Gun Control and Abortion

[angler]

The philosophical fact of the matter is that moral relativism denies, intrinsically, any idea of an inalienable right keep and bear arms, or any other Natural Law right, because it rejects and denies completely the reality of objective truth. But the warnings of the Founders, as well as the great political and ancient philosophers, are not only ignored, but mocked.

Well thanks for identifying yourself as one completely unreliable for testimony!

Took you all day to Google that up, did it. I agree with the quotes above, ethics and morality are requisites in a free society. However, I can't agree with using a 12th century Christian view of ethics and morality in our modern society. Obviously we differ on this point......

Natural Law has nothing whatsoever to do with any particular religious affiliation. Religions have claimed authority over it, but if you actually study philosophy, it is independent of religion. The concept of natural law pre-dates Christianity by a LONG shot. The funny thing is, sharia law is claimed to be "natural law" by Muslims. Saying moral relativism is antithetical to natural law is a logical fallacy. Divine law is morally relative. If you want to say natural law gives you the right to defend yourself, you are right, but there is no need to start dragging some god into it.

I'm not arguing that you can believe what you want in regards to divine, or biblical, law. Biblical law is not natural law and while our constitution is rooted in natural law, we have come so far away from it as for it to be barely recognizable in our system of positive law. I think you will be very sorely mistaken if you try to make this fight about natural law. I also think that you will be dismissed at as cuckoo bananas if you try to win this fight using abortion parallels.

But I'm not attacking your right to believe in these concepts.

 

[TH-X15]

Well thanks for identifying yourself as one completely unreliable for testimony!

This is what is called "projection" in psychology.

Natural Law has nothing whatsoever to do with any particular religious affiliation.

Where did I claim otherwise?

Religions have claimed authority over it, but if you actually study philosophy, it is independent of religion.

Philosophy is only as independent from metaphysics as it is from physics.

The concept of natural law pre-dates Christianity by a LONG shot.

Again, where have I stated otherwise?

The funny thing is, sharia law is claimed to be "natural law" by Muslims. Saying moral relativism is antithetical to natural law is a logical fallacy.

Quite the contrary, stating that morality is subjective but rights are objective is a logical fallacy. And rather a blatantly obvious one at that.

Divine law is morally relative. If you want to say natural law gives you the right to defend yourself, you are right, but there is no need to start dragging some god into it.

As the Founders did you mean? And since truth is one, and objective, God is objective, thus Divine Law is objective. It is only are relation to truth that is relative.

I'm not arguing that you can believe what you want in regards to divine, or biblical, law. Biblical law is not natural law

Which, as you know, is why I never claimed otherwise.

 

[angler]

Oh brother. God is only objective if you believe in a god.......

 

[TH-X15]

Oh brother. God is only objective if you believe in a god.......

It really does not matter how many different ways you try to phrase it, I will never accept that Sharia Law is a good thing for America.

 

[angler]

What are you smoking? Seriously.

 

[TH-X15]

What are you smoking? Seriously.

What, now you don't want to play "refute assertions that weren't actually made" anymore? But you just started up the game.

 

[Kilroy]

Perfectly valid argument in my opinion. Just not a very strong one.

 

[ridethemessiah]

One of these days I'm gonna sit at my computer with a pocket sized Funk & Wagnall's and totally pwn the shit out of somebody on MDS.

Making any mention of abortion during a gun control discussion opens up a huge ass can of worms.

 

[AntiGun]

Can a mod close this thread already.

 

[Haides]

So the pro-life stances is antigun / antiabortion.

The pro-choice stance is pro-gun pro-abortion.

Are you freaking serious? That's a grade-A douche bag statement right there; that somehow being pro-2A = anti-life. What are you smoking?

***

I honestly can't believe this crap. Abortion is only "choice" as far as deciding to murder somebody is a choice. I don't have the right to murder an innocent human being because they inconvenience me, and having a vagina doesn't give somebody else that right either. Every woman does have a choice with what she does with her own body. For example, spreading your legs and having unprotected sex- what do you call that? A f***ing choice. Pregnancy is a consequence of said choice, not an independent event. It's a simple cause and effect relationship; don't want to get pregnant? It's easy! Don't have sex. Still want to have sex? Okay, then you have to accept the risk of getting pregnant. But you don't get to murder people to cover up the results of your choices, and this circumstance is no different.

How can you say in one breath that our gun ownership shouldn't be in question because we don't want to kill anybody, yet be totally okay with terminating a pregnancy (i.e. killing somebody)??? And then have the balls to say that anti-abortion people are "moral police." Well if that's how it works, then let's just get rid of all our laws against murder because, you know, you can't legislate morality.

Oh, but you're not okay with late term abortions, you say? Why, because now it's starting to look like a human? Then I guess it'd be okay to ban AR-15's because they look scary, right? Come on.

Since when did advocating against murder make someone a "whacky religious nut job" anyway?

IBTL

 

[clandestine]

Are you freaking serious? That's a grade-A douche bag statement right there; that somehow being pro-2A = anti-life. What are you smoking?

***

I honestly can't believe this crap. Abortion is only "choice" as far as deciding to murder somebody is a choice. I don't have the right to murder an innocent human being because they inconvenience me, and having a vagina doesn't give somebody else that right either. Every woman does have a choice with what she does with her own body. For example, spreading your legs and having unprotected sex- what do you call that? A f***ing choice. Pregnancy is a consequence of said choice, not an independent event. It's a simple cause and effect relationship; don't want to get pregnant? It's easy! Don't have sex. Still want to have sex? Okay, then you have to accept the risk of getting pregnant. But you don't get to murder people to cover up the results of your choices, and this circumstance is no different.

How can you say in one breath that our gun ownership shouldn't be in question because we don't want to kill anybody, yet be totally okay with terminating a pregnancy (i.e. killing somebody)??? And then have the balls to say that anti-abortion people are "moral police." Well if that's how it works, then let's just get rid of all our laws against murder because, you know, you can't legislate morality.

Oh, but you're not okay with late term abortions, you say? Why, because now it's starting to look like a human? Then I guess it'd be okay to ban AR-15's because they look scary, right? Come on.

Since when did advocating against murder make someone a "whacky religious nut job" anyway?

IBTL

I like you.

 

[Indiana Jones]

Are you freaking serious? That's a grade-A douche bag statement right there; that somehow being pro-2A = anti-life. What are you smoking?

***

I honestly can't believe this crap. Abortion is only "choice" as far as deciding to murder somebody is a choice. I don't have the right to murder an innocent human being because they inconvenience me, and having a vagina doesn't give somebody else that right either. Every woman does have a choice with what she does with her own body. For example, spreading your legs and having unprotected sex- what do you call that? A f***ing choice. Pregnancy is a consequence of said choice, not an independent event. It's a simple cause and effect relationship; don't want to get pregnant? It's easy! Don't have sex. Still want to have sex? Okay, then you have to accept the risk of getting pregnant. But you don't get to murder people to cover up the results of your choices, and this circumstance is no different.

How can you say in one breath that our gun ownership shouldn't be in question because we don't want to kill anybody, yet be totally okay with terminating a pregnancy (i.e. killing somebody)??? And then have the balls to say that anti-abortion people are "moral police." Well if that's how it works, then let's just get rid of all our laws against murder because, you know, you can't legislate morality.

Oh, but you're not okay with late term abortions, you say? Why, because now it's starting to look like a human? Then I guess it'd be okay to ban AR-15's because they look scary, right? Come on.

Since when did advocating against murder make someone a "whacky religious nut job" anyway?

IBTL

DAMN. Did i just hear the mighty thunder of Zeus ram someone in the ass? Best post ever!

 

[clandestine]

I'm pro-choice. Hell, I'm pro-abortion. One quick trip to the Target on a weekend day and I'm read to legalize late term abortions - lets say like all the way to 5 years old.

You talk of murdering children up to 5 years old. Yet the O.P. is complaining about people associating Abortion and Gun Rights.

Kids are easy targets for cowards, you are so cool.

I bet the ladies at Planned Parenthood love you long time.

 

[Haides]

DAMN. Did i just hear the mighty thunder of Zeus ram someone in the ass? Best post ever!

Yeah, you know. He is my brother, after all

 

[PJDiesel]

I think he said it in jest.

In the words of the super sexy Matthew McConaughey in Fool's Gold: "He's a provocateur"

 

[captain-kate]

I don't care what your position is on abortion or any other topic. If you're pro-2A, you're good to go for the 6th in my book.

Having said that, getting folks all riled up about an unrelated (even if intrinsically similar topic) is not going to help us. Let's stay on topic and keep stuff like this for The Water Cooler.

EDIT: This is directed at nobody in particular. I just don't see this as being productive and thought I'd share.

Thank you. I am sick and tired of the left/right hatred toward one another and the childish name calling and insults. Personally I am socially Progressive, fiscally conservative woman and a registered Indie. I am also agnostic, pro-choice (it is no one else's business what I choose to do with my own body), pro-death penalty, very pro-2A and own a lot of firearms, including an AR (just sold my AK), ride a motorcycle, and I'm a Vietnam-era-GAY veteran. An yes, to make matters worst, I was raised in California and lived there happily for 40+ years before moving to the east coast.

So are you people going to hate me? Personally I could care less - I am a grownup and try to act the part, and it is the extreme radical right that drove me out of the Republican party, and the extreme radical left that keeps me from the Democratic party.

Regardless, if people would just lay off the political attacks and bull**it insults and focus on the current problem - the proposed AWB and other potential 2A issues, maybe, just maybe we might turn this around. Otherwise I'm just wasting my own time on this silly forum.

 

[AC20814]

People will always disagree on when exactly life begins (many disagree on when it ends!). Ultimately everybody has to make their own determination about the definition of "life," and that definition lies within each of our own hearts and minds. People can yell "my body!" or "murder!" all they want, these forum posts won't serve to change any opinions, but they do shed a light on just how divisive an issue it is, at a time when what we need is unity.

 

[Haides]

So are you people going to hate me? Personally I could care less - I am a grownup and try to act the part, and it is the extreme radical right that drove me out of the Republican party, and the extreme radical left that keeps me from the Democratic party.

Sorry, I'll update my post.

Since when did advocating against murder make someone a "whacky religious nut job radical right-wing extremist" anyway?

 

[captain-kate]

I hesitate to post this because I feel I am going to get "burned" for it... but maybe that is the point.

In the local paper this week, a man wrote a letter responding to a local politicians argument for the AWB passing and it was filled with a lot of the same arguments I have heard on here-- that the real cause of violence increasing in this country isn't guns but a lack of "moral fiber and Christian values," with abortions, violent video games and liberal schools thrown in. About halfway through his rant, he threw in gay marriages as an additional cause for increasing violence in our society. Why? Because gay sex causes AIDS and it's against the Bible and so God is smiting us as a nation.

Like it or not... that REALLY does alienate people. It alienates me as a gay woman. It is hard enough being a female shooter... but being a GAY female shooter is beyond terrifying. I always "walk on eggshells" when entering into any conversation with a fellow shooter... what do I say if they ask if I am married? I want to learn to hunt... but finding a person to teach me is so hard, because I have to worry constantly about outing myself and what their opinion would be if it happens. So many times I hear conservatives say "I don't care if people are gay, but why can't they just keep it to themselves?" Do you ever stop to think how hard it would be, not to mention anything about your spouse, or your children? And even when you don't mention it, people ask-- so what do you say? Do you lie, and insult the woman you love by pretending she does not exist? It's ridiculous that I even have to consider these things... but in this circle, I feel that I do, and I read posts every day on this site and others that back up my feelings on this matter... in order for me to "count" I have to pretend to be someone I am not.

When I was 18, I came home and proudly announced to my parents (who were registered Democrats at the time, but talking about switching) that I had registered to vote Republican. I proudly voted for GWB in 2000. Once I came out to myself (a process that takes more time and courage than actually coming out to others) I began to feel increasingly uncomfortable with the evolving Republican attacks on people like myself-- their consistent allegation that we are "less than" because we're not like the majority. It gave me a new line of insight into what minority races go through every day in this country. The Republican parties continual beating of the anti-gay drum drove me away from them... but I couldn't be a democrat either, because I disagree with many of their core issues as well, like gun control. So I landed w the Libertarian party. At this point I feel my only viable solution is to hang with a party that encourages minimal government involvement in our lives and maximum freedom. But I do consider myself a "displaced" Republican most days... because I agree with most of their fiscal policies but cannot bring myself to support the current framework of religiously motivated social policy.

What does this mean for any of you?

Probably nothing, but to me, the feeling of alienation that the OP mentions is a very real thing. You want people to be active in supporting 2A rights and 2A groups and marching on Annapolis in a few weeks? Then stop giving those of us who aren't straight, white, Christian men a reason to pause and consider whether it would be safe, emotionally and (sometimes) physically for us to do so. Regardless of your thoughts on abortion, start considering the ramifications of women in poverty having more babies than they can afford and the fact that while most conservatives crow about the hypocrisy of liberals and gun control/abortion, they are guilty of the same-- because they DON'T want a woman to abort her baby and DO want to defund social programs that help her to support herself and the baby once it is born. That's hypocrisy too. The conservatives are JUST as guilty of it as the liberals, but in different ways.

I'm not trying to start a pissing contest. I know that a good many of you will blow me off as a crazy dyke you wouldn't want to associate with anyway. But statistics have shown that the number of people involved in traditional shooting sports like hunting have been declining in the past few decades, and we as gun owners need all the help (and voices) we can get. Stop alienating people, especially over things they cannot control.

I am a woman. I am a VT graduate who lost two friends in a school shooting. I am agnostic at best. I am gay. And I am a gun owner.

And I will fight tooth and nail for ALL of my civil rights and freedoms.

I'm with you 100% and also just like you - an female, agnostic gay woman who happens to love guns and shooting. You are not alone....

 

[PJDiesel]

This thread is like family counseling, except...now I'm feeling left out being a plain old white, straight male.