Gov. Hogan now has an excuse?

[WhyIsMDTheWayItIs]

I also got the email. I considered responding that I would donate after he addressed my Wear and Carry Permit concerns, but I figure he would never see that message.

That's exactly what I thought, except I sent the response :-)

 

[WhyIsMDTheWayItIs]

So I've skimmed through entire thread, and it was mentioned how Hogan is powerless to enact change concerning CCW permits, specifically defining personal protection as G&S (like as another post stated 45 other states do). I don't recall a post that referenced Hogan ability to do this via EO...just so I completely understand, this is completely within his power right, and the inaction is politically caused by a re-election prospect standpoint, and personally caused from a lack of having balls? If there was a lawsuit over (against) the EO, then the argument is well personal protection is not good enough in 4-5 other states, but it's good enough in 45-46 so the EO is illegal...I'd like the chances of that court case outcome because would not overturning the EO then upend the laws of 45 states vs an upholding of the EO that only impacts one state.

 

[Stoveman]

So I've skimmed through entire thread, and it was mentioned how Hogan is powerless to enact change concerning CCW permits, specifically defining personal protection as G&S (like as another post stated 45 other states do). I don't recall a post that referenced Hogan ability to do this via EO...just so I completely understand, this is completely within his power right, and the inaction is politically caused by a re-election prospect standpoint, and personally caused from a lack of having balls? If there was a lawsuit over (against) the EO, then the argument is well personal protection is not good enough in 4-5 other states, but it's good enough in 45-46 so the EO is illegal...I'd like the chances of that court case outcome because would not overturning the EO then upend the laws of 45 states vs an upholding of the EO that only impacts one state.

Possibly, but in the meantime say hello to Gov Kamenetz or Frosh.

 

[synuepka]

So I've skimmed through entire thread, and it was mentioned how Hogan is powerless to enact change concerning CCW permits, specifically defining personal protection as G&S (like as another post stated 45 other states do). I don't recall a post that referenced Hogan ability to do this via EO...just so I completely understand, this is completely within his power right, and the inaction is politically caused by a re-election prospect standpoint, and personally caused from a lack of having balls? If there was a lawsuit over (against) the EO, then the argument is well personal protection is not good enough in 4-5 other states, but it's good enough in 45-46 so the EO is illegal...I'd like the chances of that court case outcome because would not overturning the EO then upend the laws of 45 states vs an upholding of the EO that only impacts one state.

The issue is the state legislature being able to pass legislation and subsequently override Hogan's veto.

If Hogan directs the MSP to modify their policies and procedures (G&S defined by MSP), the state legislature would be all but guaranteed to pass legislation counteracting the changes (G&S defined by legislature, at best) during their next session. Additionally, consider the likelihood of the legislature passing a narrow scope, single issue bill. Democrats would load it up with whatever nonsense antis are parroting at the time.

So now you're stuck with concealed carry being directly controlled by the legislature and a whole new slew of other 2A infringements. To fix this, you now need to figure out how to convince a majority Democrat legislature to undo their own legislation. It is nearly impossible for the Democrats to lose their majority in either Maryland's house or senate in the near future.

It is however, possible that Democrats will lose their veto override margin within the next 1-2 gubernatorial election cycles. At that point, a Republican governor could take executive action without immediate interference and/or retaliation from the legislature.

Rash, shorted sighted political maneuvers will not benefit us for more than the period between legislative sessions (April to January). Focus your efforts on eliminating the Democrats' veto power - if you're district is overwhelmingly Democrat (85% in my case), support candidates in districts with a chance of winning (I am).

 

[swinokur]

The Gov.'s position will be stronger if National Reciprocity is passed. It will be harder for the GA to deny MD residents rights when out of state residents are legally carrying here.

 

[Vetted84]

The Gov.'s position will be stronger if National Reciprocity is passed. It will be harder for the GA to deny MD residents rights when out of state residents are legally carrying here.

I'm not sure I agree.

I see a national law being passed with the option for states having the option to participate. It will end up being a general election ballot question.

 

[swinokur]

The only National reciprocity bill to be proposed so far gives out of state residents the right to carry in any state, including on non resident permits.and there's no option to participate or not. The bill uses the Commerce Clause in COTUS for authority. That has been used before and will pass Constitutional muster. That doesn't mean it won't change.But based on what is currently proposed,, I stand by my comment.

https://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?p=4631799#post4631799

 

[Vetted84]

The only National reciprocity bill to be proposed so far gives out of state residents the right to carry in any state, including on non resident permits.and there's no option to participate or not. The bill uses the Commerce Clause in COTUS for authority. That has been used before and will pass Constitutional muster. That doesn't mean it won't change.But based on what is currently proposed,, I stand by my comment.

https://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?p=4631799#post4631799

Based on what is proposed, I agree. However, like every bill of significance, the final bill will look nothing like the initial bill. It will go from 2 pages to 2000 pages in a blink of an eye.

 

[Jaybeez]

The issue is the state legislature being able to pass legislation and subsequently override Hogan's veto.

If Hogan directs the MSP to modify their policies and procedures (G&S defined by MSP), the state legislature would be all but guaranteed to pass legislation counteracting the changes (G&S defined by legislature, at best) during their next session. Additionally, consider the likelihood of the legislature passing a narrow scope, single issue bill. Democrats would load it up with whatever nonsense antis are parroting at the time.

So now you're stuck with concealed carry being directly controlled by the legislature and a whole new slew of other 2A infringements. To fix this, you now need to figure out how to convince a majority Democrat legislature to undo their own legislation. It is nearly impossible for the Democrats to lose their majority in either Maryland's house or senate in the near future.

It is however, possible that Democrats will lose their veto override margin within the next 1-2 gubernatorial election cycles. At that point, a Republican governor could take executive action without immediate interference and/or retaliation from the legislature.

Rash, shorted sighted political maneuvers will not benefit us for more than the period between legislative sessions (April to January). Focus your efforts on eliminating the Democrats' veto power - if you're district is overwhelmingly Democrat (85% in my case), support candidates in districts with a chance of winning (I am).

There is a very "good reason" that no may issue state has specifically defind their "good reason" clauses. they need need be vague in order to stand.

I dont understand the mentality that thinks the MD Dems have something under their sleeves that can make carry even harder to obtain. They don't. They already played their nuclear option during sb281 when the woolard decision was imminent. They added the 16 hour training, and criminal penalties for restriction violations. There isnt anything else they can add or define that will hold up. And if they did try, they would open the law up to new challenges in court, and being the "worst" would paint a huge target on their backs for all the lawyers that want to see may issue go down nationwide.

Look what happened to Chicago.

If they really thought this was something they could win legislatively and through the courts, and in public opinion, they wouldnt be fighting it so hard in secret.

 

[swinokur]

The entire point of National reciprocity is to guarantee the right o carry in other states. Voluntary participation will result in what we have now, ie, MD,.NJ, NY, DC, CA. etc.

 

[Mark75H]

There is a very "good reason" that no may issue state has specifically defind their "good reason" clauses. they need need be vague in order to stand.

I dont understand the mentality that thinks the MD Dems have something under their sleeves that can make carry even harder to obtain. They don't. They already played their nuclear option during sb281 when the woolard decision was imminent. They added the 16 hour training, and criminal penalties for restriction violations. There isnt anything else they can add or define that will hold up. And if they did try, they would open the law up to new challenges in court, and being the "worst" would paint a huge target on their backs for all the lawyers that want to see may issue go down nationwide.

Look what happened to Chicago.

If they really thought this was something they could win legislatively and through the courts, and in public opinion, they wouldnt be fighting it so hard in secret.

Correct. They know that anything, absolutely anything with giant capitol letters, will not only be immediately challenged in court, but will loose, even on their wonky immediate scrutiny scheme. Our current restrictions are the absolute end of the line that even the old liberal Supreme Court would uphold. Multiple decisions affirm this.

About all they can do to us is Illinois & DC type ammo restrictions.

 

[Biggfoot44]

T,P,M

 

[Jaybeez]

T,P,M

Thatvs already done extensively through the administrative process via restrictions, but they dare not codify it.

 

[WhyIsMDTheWayItIs]

The Dems in the MD GA have shown no willingness whatsoever to work with Gov. Hogan, and I do not see that changing. With that being said and based on responses to my original post, the ball is really in Hogan's court concerning an EO as the Dems in the MD GA would be hard pressed to codify new law that specifically states personal protection is not G&S as this would not stand up in court. All the Gov. has to do is proactively market (TV news interviews, Baltimore Sun interviews, etc.) the message of the change (compare to other states, onerous process still involved in getting a CCW from MSP, etc.), and the Dems' bogus claims won't impact his cherished popularity rating nor impact his re-election chances. Yes, there's risk, but it can be significantly mitigated if there was any motivation by the Gov. to undertake. I'm now convinced (until proven wrong) that this was never in his plan to "Change MD" and MD 2a supporters were just given lip service.

 

[andimorony]

Heaven Help You All

....I'm back

Okay...let me state up front, I did not read all ten pages of this string. So now that that's out of the way....

If Trump or the Hill gets a Reciprocity bill through, yay. However, as I understand it, the bill that has the best chance (I'm sure someone mentioned this) is the one that exempts out the home state for the citizen. In this case, Maryland for most of us.

I'm feeling like that doesn't make it any easier for the Governor to issue an Executive Order which btw, cannot contravene the law. So, the PTB in Naptown break arms to get a law passed that overrides his EO. (IANAL but I believe that's how it works).

Remember, we live in left of center state..granted more center now than in past years, but still left. Additionally the Governor is not a one issue politician---NOR SHOULD HE BE. Just as we should not be one issue voters....

But for now, lets see what happens nationally. And what crapislation the libs throw at the wall in Naptown and go from there.

 

[Mark75H]

I'd be happy to just see Hogan give solid, unqualified support of Republican MD Senate and House candidates over their Democrat opponents.

Without a more cooperative legislature, he's generally impotent. If he's not WORKING on a more cooperative legislature, he's just standing around looking pretty.

So far I don't even see him with the guts to say he'd rather someone else be senate president and speaker among the Democrats. That's the bare minimum.

 

[mxrider]

....I'm back

Welcome!

I'm feeling like that doesn't make it any easier for the Governor to issue an Executive Order which btw, cannot contravene the law. So, the PTB in Naptown break arms to get a law passed that overrides his EO. (IANAL but I believe that's how it works).

I don't think this will have any effect on how the Governor is currently addressing 2A in this state, but it will put pressure on the legislature to address this. At the very minimum, it should get a proposed bill out of the desk drawer and up for a committee vote when anyone can carry in this state that has a permit except for our own residents.

But for now, lets see what happens nationally. And what crapislation the libs throw at the wall in Naptown and go from there.

That's pretty much where we stand right now. I fully expect a tough year for us to battle this year.

 

[Alutacon]

The Dems in the MD GA have shown no willingness whatsoever to work with Gov. Hogan, and I do not see that changing. With that being said and based on responses to my original post, the ball is really in Hogan's court concerning an EO as the Dems in the MD GA would be hard pressed to codify new law that specifically states personal protection is not G&S as this would not stand up in court. All the Gov. has to do is proactively market (TV news interviews, Baltimore Sun interviews, etc.) the message of the change (compare to other states, onerous process still involved in getting a CCW from MSP, etc.), and the Dems' bogus claims won't impact his cherished popularity rating nor impact his re-election chances. Yes, there's risk, but it can be significantly mitigated if there was any motivation by the Gov. to undertake. I'm now convinced (until proven wrong) that this was never in his plan to "Change MD" and MD 2a supporters were just given lip service.

I agree with your sentiment. He'll never issue an EO on the issue because the issue doesn't matter to him.

 

[Jaybeez]

....I'm back

Okay...let me state up front, I did not read all ten pages of this string. So now that that's out of the way....

If Trump or the Hill gets a Reciprocity bill through, yay. However, as I understand it, the bill that has the best chance (I'm sure someone mentioned this) is the one that exempts out the home state for the citizen. In this case, Maryland for most of us.

I'm feeling like that doesn't make it any easier for the Governor to issue an Executive Order which btw, cannot contravene the law. So, the PTB in Naptown break arms to get a law passed that overrides his EO. (IANAL but I believe that's how it works).

Remember, we live in left of center state..granted more center now than in past years, but still left. Additionally the Governor is not a one issue politician---NOR SHOULD HE BE. Just as we should not be one issue voters....

But for now, lets see what happens nationally. And what crapislation the libs throw at the wall in Naptown and go from there.

It's not necessary to contravene the law. Its only necessary to actually understand it, and take advantage of the gigantic loopholes of authority it grants, and ignore the dogmatic precedent of the previous users of that authority, and how they previously abused it.

That goes for the Governor's office, to the MSP LD, and all the way down to the lowly "2A supporters" appointed to certain boards.

 

[robmints]

It's not necessary to contravene the law. Its only necessary to actually understand it, and take advantage of the gigantic loopholes of authority it grants, and ignore the dogmatic precedent of the previous users of that authority, and how they previously abused it.

That goes for the Governor's office, to the MSP LD, and all the way down to the lowly "2A supporters" appointed to certain boards.

Yep. It is right in front of them. They need nothing but the desire. The decisions are left up to the chosen super.

As proof, riddle me this: restrictions. Why? There is no hand tying or overseeing, no eo or any other reason for restrictions except the Gov wants them to continue. That change would totally fly under the radar and could easily be defended if questioned.

Love to hear a Hoganite explain.