Gauging interest in a MD compliant upper

[04RWon]

I just started my own business. I have a few ideas, one of which is a MD compliant upper. After watching my cousin go through trouble finding an AR up there I thought there may be a market. I am not trying to compete with anyone else, not saying what I will bring to the table will be an end all, and honestly, other than getting dealer pricing on the parts and keeping my labor cheap, it is nothing anyone else cant do. Well, not everyone wants to build their uppers I guess.

Anyway, my plan is to use a piston operation, as my understanding that will work around the hbar issue. By doing this I plan to use quality barrels, such as Spikes, Noveske, BCM, Sons Of Liberty, Daniel Defense, pretty much anything you want that I can get. Obviously prices will differ between which barrel is used. The gas blocks will be set screwed, so if you were to move to another state or whatever the case may be you could easily replace it with a standard gas block and tube. That would require a new carrier as well.

This could be a complete flop, and no one has any interest. I just thought I would put it out there. It seems like new shooters have a limited market for a quality AR with post 2013 lowers. I am just hoping to add another option. I want to give people a quality barrel and bolt, that they may find difficult to find since the hbar market is not as large. Pistons arent my favorite for AR's but these should be very reliable and take just about any handguard on the market. Please let me know what you think.

 

[Magnumite]

I am not a boutique AR-15 guy so have no experience with anything more upscale than a Colt, RRA, and LWRC. A viable question would be how does the weight of one of your 16” piston uppers compare with a 16” HBAR with carbine gas system.

Good luck with your venture.

 

[grimnar15]

I just started my own business. I have a few ideas, one of which is a MD compliant upper. After watching my cousin go through trouble finding an AR up there I thought there may be a market. I am not trying to compete with anyone else, not saying what I will bring to the table will be an end all, and honestly, other than getting dealer pricing on the parts and keeping my labor cheap, it is nothing anyone else cant do. Well, not everyone wants to build their uppers I guess.

Anyway, my plan is to use a piston operation, as my understanding that will work around the hbar issue. By doing this I plan to use quality barrels, such as Spikes, Noveske, BCM, Sons Of Liberty, Daniel Defense, pretty much anything you want that I can get. Obviously prices will differ between which barrel is used. The gas blocks will be set screwed, so if you were to move to another state or whatever the case may be you could easily replace it with a standard gas block and tube. That would require a new carrier as well.

This could be a complete flop, and no one has any interest. I just thought I would put it out there. It seems like new shooters have a limited market for a quality AR with post 2013 lowers. I am just hoping to add another option. I want to give people a quality barrel and bolt, that they may find difficult to find since the hbar market is not as large. Pistons arent my favorite for AR's but these should be very reliable and take just about any handguard on the market. Please let me know what you think.

Why do piston? You can sell any upper, it is up to the buyer to put on a compliant lower.

 

[04RWon]

I am not a boutique AR-15 guy so have no experience with anything more upscale than a Colt, RRA, and LWRC. A viable question would be how does the weight of one of your 16” piston uppers compare with a 16” HBAR with carbine gas system.

Good luck with your venture.

It should still be less, but ill see if i can come up with an estimated weight. I havent put a prototype together yet. The dealer parts happening faster than I planned lol

Why do piston? You can sell any upper, it is up to the buyer to put on a compliant lower.

Thats true, I can sell any uppers. This is geared towards the people who dont want to take the chance. People still do form 1’s when they could just throw uppers less than 16” on their non pistol lowers.

 

[babalou]

pistons are more expensive plus they have short and long. I have a PWS MK116 Mod1 16" with the long piston. Thus, the piston is connected to the bolt carrier. Short strokes do not. I love it as one of my favorite ARs, though.

 

[04RWon]

pistons are more expensive plus they have short and long. I have a PWS MK116 Mod1 16" with the long piston. Thus, the piston is connected to the bolt carrier. Short strokes do not. I love it as one of my favorite ARs, though.

This would be a short stroke. I haven't heard back from the manufacturer or I would name them, but I want to make sure its secured that I am a dealer first. This would definitely be more than buying a regular BCM upper, however depending on the cost of the piston setup, not much. With other barrels like the solgw, and spikes, it would probably be close.

 

[budman93]

I'm not trying to shoot down your idea but i dont think i would say its hard to find an ar in md. You said your cousin had trouble but most shops seem to have at least a few md compliant models available and i frequently see dealers that are members here advertising basic md legal heavy barrel ars at some pretty low prices. The market is definitely more limited but there are some out there. I would say its probably easier to find a complete rifle than just an upper in a heavy barrel. Most major ar companies have md versions but not all places that are more into parts have heavy barrel uppers.

There could still be a nice niche in the market for a good md legal upper but dont expect to be the only option. It sounds like you are aiming for a higher end/custom product so you might be able to get a different set of customers in md. I see no reason not to try if you can build them as you sell them and dont have to buy a ton of parts all at once or do anything major before finding out if there is enough demand.

 

[04RWon]

I'm not trying to shoot down your idea but i dont think i would say its hard to find an ar in md. You said your cousin had trouble but most shops seem to have at least a few md compliant models available and i frequently see dealers that are members here advertising basic md legal heavy barrel ars at some pretty low prices. The market is definitely more limited but there are some out there. I would say its probably easier to find a complete rifle than just an upper in a heavy barrel. Most major ar companies have md versions but not all places that are more into parts have heavy barrel uppers.

There could still be a nice niche in the market for a good md legal upper but dont expect to be the only option. It sounds like you are aiming for a higher end/custom product so you might be able to get a different set of customers in md. I see no reason not to try if you can build them as you sell them and dont have to buy a ton of parts all at once or do anything major before finding out if there is enough demand.

It would be a build to order to get started for sure.

I guess I should clarify, he found plenty of rifles. Some were more than they should have been, especially for the type of basic rifle they were.

I could be completely wrong with this as I do not have to deal with it on a regular basis. The hbar market doesn't seem to have a wide variety of the mid-high end stuff. Other than a colt m4a1 theres not many 1/7 cl barrels that I am aware of. LWRC is the only one I can think of. I believe BCM is banned by name as far as lowers go right? Even though they have a socom upper its not technically MD legal since it doesn't say hbar. DD isnt allowed on a post 2013 lower right?
I am coming from the days of when hbars generally meant, chromolly, 1/9 twist. More of a hobby/range AR. Like I said I could be completely wrong, and I hope its not still like that, I am just not aware of it as hbar isnt a thing down here.

 

[budman93]

It would be a build to order to get started for sure.

I guess I should clarify, he found plenty of rifles. Some were more than they should have been, especially for the type of basic rifle they were.

I could be completely wrong with this as I do not have to deal with it on a regular basis. The hbar market doesn't seem to have a wide variety of the mid-high end stuff. Other than a colt m4a1 theres not many 1/7 cl barrels that I am aware of. LWRC is the only one I can think of. I believe BCM is banned by name as far as lowers go right? Even though they have a socom upper its not technically MD legal since it doesn't say hbar. DD isnt allowed on a post 2013 lower right?
I am coming from the days of when hbars generally meant, chromolly, 1/9 twist. More of a hobby/range AR. Like I said I could be completely wrong, and I hope its not still like that, I am just not aware of it as hbar isnt a thing down here.

It is more limited for sure. One of the main sources for more of a budget hbar with people i know is del-ton. They allow you to opt for chrome and your twist choice. They are pretty good for the money in my opinion. But not high end. I dont know as much about the high end options, i tend to not be on that side of the market as i see diminishing returns vs price on a lot of the fancy big name brand stuff although it is nice. In any case there is limited product selection in a limited market.

 

[omegared24]

I'd do more research on MD laws and product availability before gauging interest based on guesses.

"I could be wrong" isn't a great marketing strategy.

 

[04RWon]

I'd do more research on MD laws and product availability before gauging interest based on guesses.

"I could be wrong" isn't a great marketing strategy.

I have been, but have not found much. When I say that I mean I am not the end all of information and am willing to learn from what others say. MD law is not known for being clear.

From what I have found hbar does not apply when its a piston upper. That's the basis for my idea.

 

[04RWon]

Right now I'm estimating around 745+shipping for a complete upper. That is a solgw barrel, bcm receiver, bcm bolt, spikes charging handle, a2 fh, and a bcm 9" mcmr and piston system. All you need is a set of sights and you are ready to shoot. Does not have to include a rail which would bring this particular setup down to about 600.

The piston kit looks to add around 10 ounces on this particular setup.

For comparison, a 16" BCM gov profile, middy with mcmr 13, mod3b ch, and bcg is 807.90 on bcm's site before shipping. My piston setup with the same barrel(bcm 16" mid gov) and a 13" mcmr, and 3b ch, is about 859 before shipping. I did the 13" for the comparison. Thats up to the buyer on the rail they would want. 13" may make it difficult to service the piston if you desire.

So for about 51.10 more you can have a Maryland compliant upper of a manufacturer that has been regarded as one of the best in the business. Now if everyone in MD is doing what they want as far as their builds on post 13 lowers, hell yes! Free men dont ask for permission, the laws are absolutely ridiculous, to hell with that nonsense. Freedom on to my brothers and sisters up north.

 

[danb]

There are tons of complete and MD compliant AR rifles (HBAR), not piston, for under 745. Ruger sells a decent build for $500- complete MD compliant rifle. There are others. For 700 I could name some even with a free float barrel.

If your cousin had trouble he either was not looking hard or dealers are temporarily out of stock due to the coronapocalypse. But, I was at an IP this week and saw several on the shelves. I bet if you look in the IP section you'll find some examples.

 

[SkiPatrolDude]

Hanover Armory is a licensed manufacturer and can make whatever AR platform rifle your heart desires (within the limits of MD law). They have connections with many barrel manufacturers so they have many options, especially for those that want to go the "custom route". Since they manufacture the firearms, they are sold to you explicitly as an HBAR, so you can be confident you are within the law.

They have their own forged uppers and they mill their own billet lowers in house. My billet lower from them has the absolute best fit of any of my rifles. Zero play between my forged upper and billet lower, even after thousands of rounds. My spikes tactical matching upper and lower feel like crap compared to it.

Great guys, too. They charge a small percentage for credit cards, though...so bring cash or a debit card if you want to save a little money.

 

[vgplayer]

The pricing is good for high quality parts. Personally I am hesitant on retrofit piston systems.

If you are working with SOLGW maybe you could get a run of their Marksmen barrels marked HBAR https://sonsoflibertygw.com/16-mark...gth-gas-system-223wylde-416r-1-8-qpq-mpi-hpt/
Or something like Ballistic Advantages Fluted SPR https://www.ballisticadvantage.com/16-inch-223-wylde-spr-fluted-midlength-ss-premium-barrel.html

 

[atblis]

Exactly. Market your own barrels as HBAR. That linked BA Fluted SPR would be perfect. I wouldn't get crazy and try to sell a pencil barrel as an HBAR though it'd be fun.

 

[04RWon]

The pricing is good for high quality parts. Personally I am hesitant on retrofit piston systems.

If you are working with SOLGW maybe you could get a run of their Marksmen barrels marked HBAR https://sonsoflibertygw.com/16-mark...gth-gas-system-223wylde-416r-1-8-qpq-mpi-hpt/
Or something like Ballistic Advantages Fluted SPR https://www.ballisticadvantage.com/16-inch-223-wylde-spr-fluted-midlength-ss-premium-barrel.html

If this took off, definitely something i would do. But that will probably require a bulk order, something I cant fund at the moment.

Exactly. Market your own barrels as HBAR. That linked BA Fluted SPR would be perfect. I wouldn't get crazy and try to sell a pencil barrel as an HBAR though it'd be fun.

The piston system would get around that allowing for the pencil barrel.

 

[04RWon]

Piston kit confirmed. Superlative arms. Cost would actually drop considering pricing I just got by about 20-30 dollars.

 

[04RWon]

There are tons of complete and MD compliant AR rifles (HBAR), not piston, for under 745. Ruger sells a decent build for $500- complete MD compliant rifle. There are others. For 700 I could name some even with a free float barrel.

If your cousin had trouble he either was not looking hard or dealers are temporarily out of stock due to the coronapocalypse. But, I was at an IP this week and saw several on the shelves. I bet if you look in the IP section you'll find some examples.

He wanted something on the higher end. The ruger works, but not exactly on the bcm/daniel defense/lwrc level. Which is what I am marketing towards.

 

[danb]

He wanted something on the higher end. The ruger works, but not exactly on the bcm/daniel defense/lwrc level. Which is what I am marketing towards.

No doubt, but honestly there are some great HBARs on the market at the $750-$1000 (complete rifle) price range, DI with free float barrel etc. Retail, a home built Faxon HBAR barrel + free float handguard+BCG+SLR adjustable gas block is a tack driver, and in that price range, ask me how I know. No real need to go to a piston. I also have a piston AR, I like it - runs way cleaner with a suppressor and the added weight reduces what little recoil there is. But there is added weight vs a fluted HBAR. There are a lot of reasons to go with a piston, but legality is not one. One can find fluted HBARs that are not materially heavier than a regular profile. Pencil barrels tend to heat up quickly and groups open up after a mag or three. Given the small difference it weight, i still prefer my fluted HBAR, but YMMV. The scope is the heaviest part of my upper.

If it were me, I would focus on good quality upper, not worry too much about it being a piston. There is always a market for a good quality upper at a decent price.