Force-on-Force Training

[Whiskey]

How many folks have participated in personal protection training that used FoF as a training tool. What would get you to participate in a training program of this nature?

 

[Streetgang]

SCARS...
Came out bruised and battered but it was worth it.


I think.

 

[Whiskey]

SCARS...
Came out bruised and battered but it was worth it.


I think.

Did you use Simunition/UTM?

 

[AMStrick]

When I made a mistake it was painful. I like training that make you sweat and requires physical exertion. I pass on the "Gentleman" courses.

 

[ViperRy]

When I made a mistake it was painful. I like training that make you sweat and requires physical exertion. I pass on the "Gentleman" courses.

This post nails it.

 

[rdc]

I would really like to try something like this. Unfortunately price is generally a factor for me.
I think the threat of actual pain when mistakes are made is a good thing.

 

[hogarth]

I have, using airsoft in one and some SIMS in another.

It is eye opening. Things I learned:

1. On the draw, you get what you get. Got some shirt mixed in? Tough, go with it. Don't have a nice high tang grip? Tough, you go with it. It was FoF that convinced me to never own an XD or 1911.

2. Knives are scary if someone wants to do you harm.

3. Standing still is a good way to get wasted.

4. Backing up, unless you are in a narrow corridor or the like, is also a good way to get wasted.

5. Combative skills are handy.

6. Getting shot in the hands sucks.

7. Padding your jewels is a good plan.

And that's all just for starters.

 

[protegeV]

I'm scared by these posts

LoL

 

[dblas]

I have done it (once with the OP), cost is part of it, trying to get enough like minded folks together is another.

Hogarth nails the learning points.

Move off of the X.

Go with what you get, do not take the time readjust.

Dry fire training is invaluable to muscle memory when working on a 4 part concealed draw.

When practicing concealed carry and draw, work on one part at a time, not all 4 parts at once.

Getting shot in the hands does suck, especially when that hand is now called "useless" for your drill.

Minimal protective gear (head, face, neck, groin) work to "encourage" you to keep moving and stay out of the line of fire/move through a potential line of fire.

 

[mopar92]

What Hogarth and dblas said. Also cover is your friend until you cant see the attacker.

 

[Name Taken]

I've done it a few times and it's invaluable training when done properly.

I do not believe in having folks do "no win" situations. That's not to say giving a hard scenario isn't worth doing...but some folks draw up these crazy situations almost just to watch someone fail.

It really does open up your eyes as a shooter to what is around you, what is cover, what is concealment, and what you need to GTFO a live.

I fondly remember one situation where I thought I had great cover and began to engage a shooter. Said shooter promptly informed via, by firing multiple rounds into my foot, that I wasn't completely behind cover...or wasn't using it as I best as I could.

Fun times.

 

[Minuteman]

Crawl, walk, run.

Crawl for first-times or folks who are rusty. Offer short classes with limited simulations for beginners; like maybe 1 hour of class room followed by 2 hours of drills and scenarios; some with simulations. I think you should make this as cheap as possible, say $50 per student, plus $1 per simulations round used.

Walk for those that have done this kind of training a few times before recently. Short sessions in the classroom where you discuss a couple aspects of the shooting scenario, then they go and do it; repeat this sequence for 1 day (~4/5 hours of training). I think most would pay $100 for the experience, plus $1 per simulation round used.

Run for those that are generally up to speed or up to the challenge. Let them run a scenario without discussion or rehearsal, then take them back to the class room and critique how they did, giving them pointers along the way. Let them rerun the scenario multiple times, over the course of 1 day (~5/6 hours). I think most would gladly pay $150 for the day, plus $1 for every round fired. Unlimited rounds available to the student.

 

[montoya32]

I absolutely see the benefit of FoF training. To me, avoiding force on force confrontations is my number one goal. If I cannot avoid it, then I plan to use lethal force. Like I said, I completely see the value is know how to control yourself as well as a perp, but my main goal is to avoid all physical contact. I am aware it is not alway possible to avoid it, but my process would be to distance myself from the contact and get to my weapon.

 

[echo6mike]

How many folks have participated in personal protection training that used FoF as a training tool. What would get you to participate in a training program of this nature?

FoF with firearms? Never had the opportunity, even in the Corps.

Unarmed/stick&knife? Yes, scenario-based training with active opponents is invaluable. You end up with bruises, a much better awareness of/appreciation for what and how you're training, and lots of things to practice.

What would get me to participate? The opportunity and a price I could afford!

Not sure what that price would be, but I can't afford Gunsite or someplace like that

And CVMA?

I know a few Marines older than me who that's been a big help for over the years. Bringing some younger guys in too, I hear. Double thumbs-up.

 

[dblas]

I absolutely see the benefit of FoF training. To me, avoiding force on force confrontations is my number one goal. If I cannot avoid it, then I plan to use lethal force. Like I said, I completely see the value is know how to control yourself as well as a perp, but my main goal is to avoid all physical contact. I am aware it is not alway possible to avoid it, but my process would be to distance myself from the contact and get to my weapon.

What the OP is asking is FoF with firearms, not HTH, CQB or any of that stuff to get to your firearm.

 

[Whiskey]

FoF with firearms? Never had the opportunity, even in the Corps.



Unarmed/stick&knife? Yes, scenario-based training with active opponents is invaluable. You end up with bruises, a much better awareness of/appreciation for what and how you're training, and lots of things to practice.



What would get me to participate? The opportunity and a price I could afford!



Not sure what that price would be, but I can't afford Gunsite or someplace like that



And CVMA?



I know a few Marines older than me who that's been a big help for over the years. Bringing some younger guys in too, I hear. Double thumbs-up.

CVMA is a good bunch of yahoos. Helped me get a few things straight. In keeping with Minuteman's suggestion we have a few different priced points and skill levels. Retooling the program and enhancing our offerings. Some will start at $50 on up to $100+.

What the OP is asking is FoF with firearms, not HTH, CQB or any of that stuff to get to your firearm.

Actually we're taking a more holistic view on the defensive FoF training. The idea is to break it down into various skills, both armed and unarmed and build on those through more advanced scenarios. From the basics of draw and sight picture through point shooting, movement, and cover-unarmed movement, grappling, escaping, etc.

As we're crafting this program we're looking to focus on areas that will be of the most interest to get folk starting to train.

 

[Whiskey]

I've done it a few times and it's invaluable training when done properly.

I do not believe in having folks do "no win" situations. That's not to say giving a hard scenario isn't worth doing...but some folks draw up these crazy situations almost just to watch someone fail.

It really does open up your eyes as a shooter to what is around you, what is cover, what is concealment, and what you need to GTFO a live.

I fondly remember one situation where I thought I had great cover and began to engage a shooter. Said shooter promptly informed via, by firing multiple rounds into my foot, that I wasn't completely behind cover...or wasn't using it as I best as I could.

Fun times.

No win scenarios are a bit silly. Many of our scenarios are designed to force mistakes so the lesson is more beneficial. Things like tough no-shoot calls, soup-sandwich reloads, or ducking through a doorway for concealment without even an eyeball toward checking if it's clear. Or worse, standing in a doorway.

 

[Blaster229]

One of the BEST things about SIMS is malfunction drills. Rarely do you run dry a mag of SIMS. If the guns aren't cleaned after each use, they get gummed up pretty well.
You really find out who you are when you are taking fire and get a malfunction. To do an emergency reload out in the open really trains you to fight through the fight.
You will walk away with 2 handfulls of welts, but you feel accomplished and confident knowing you fought through it and walked away. Granted, you may not walk away from 12 shots, but if a shot is going to take you out, it will take you out right away. If it doesn't, then you are still in the fight.
This is why training SIMS with the minimum amount of gear is sooo important (no chest gear), to feel that pain and learn to ignore it. You CANNOT stop to lick your wounds while taking fire.

I'm not a business guy, but if Whiskey can do something to get a bunch of you here to train one day, then you NEED to take this training. Starting out with red gun walk throughs would be a plus for those who may have a case of nerves at first.

 

[Whiskey]

I'm not a business guy, but if Whiskey can do something to get a bunch of you here to train one day, then you NEED to take this training. Starting out with red gun walk throughs would be a plus for those who may have a case of nerves at first.

I have standing training dates on Fridays and Saturdays. I've got a training membership that gets you into the shop for any class or for individual training once or twice a month. (a lot cheaper in the long run). Our training is designed for the beginner but our skills are advanced. We have drills for any skill level both armed and unarmed. Even thinking about starting a tactical fitness program for those of us that are spending more time typing than operating (I'm first among that group!). Company policy is that we will find a training date and program for a group of 4 or more. We travel to train as well, class minimums depend on training type. We can run Simunition handgun, carbine, and shotgun for any scenario.

 

[gasman]

We do several courses with FoF. We use airsoft for virtually all our FoF since it's easier to get. The negative feedback is still there, and it's usually possible to get an exact replica of what you actually carry, so you can use the holsters you already have.

If you're putting on a simunitions class, I'd consider enrolling if the timing is right.