Fixing timing

[novus collectus]

What has to be done to fix timing on a revolver? Or how much would it cost to have a gunsmith fix it?

 

[Mdman]

more information is needed but it can be a HUGE pain. generaly its a matter of replacing and fitting parts.

 

[zoostation]

Hey Novus,

I only know this. Because of the different mechanisms some revolvers are more difficult than others. Colt double actions are supposed to be much harder to work on than S&W, in fact a lot of gunsmiths won't/can't even work on them anymore.

 

[novus collectus]

more information is needed but it can be a HUGE pain. generaly its a matter of replacing and fitting parts.

Ugh, "more information is needed" sounds ominous to this repair noob.
So I assume that means there can be different causes and or different symptoms? What should I look for?

This is what I know so far, when pulling the trigger on some of my revolvers the cylinder does not line up correctly on at least one chamber and sometimes more than one. The lock up that comes up from below seems to be ok because if I push the cylinder in place the rest of the way with the trigger held back they seem to line up.


Oh by the way to put this in context, most of the revolvers are antique top breaks I am thinking about fixing.

 

[novus collectus]

Hey Novus,

I only know this. Because of the different mechanisms some revolvers are more difficult than others. Colt double actions are supposed to be much harder to work on than S&W, in fact a lot of gunsmiths won't/can't even work on them anymore.

Thankfully none are Colts. I do have a S&W M1917 that DrMSparks said might have a timing problem when he fired it too though. I am mostly concerned with the old IJ, H&R and H&A top breaks and Bulldogs at the moment.

 

[zoostation]

I think a lot of those top breaks are clones of the S&W top breaks? Or maybe not, I'm not too familiar with them, but looking at the firearm forums very briefly makes it look like the older break opens might not be as bad as the more modern ones......



ETA-google-book with some info, unfortunately not all available w/o buying it....

http://books.google.com/books?id=SY...u9S1BA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2

 

[alucard0822]

Basically you have to fit a new hand to it, assuming the ratchet plate on the ejector or cylinder is still in good shape. Most manufacturers use softer metal for the hand so it wears before the ratchet does. Use your old hand as a guide to get the shape right, and file it down to about .020" longer than the part you are replacing, put the new hand in, and see where the cylinder locks up with the stop, although some hands come just about perfectly fit already, and need only minor if any fitting, others come quite a bit longer. Normally it will lock, and the hamer can be drawn back about 3/4 of the way to full cock before it stats to bind, don't force it back. Then pull the hand back out, and file it a little at a time, reinstalling it to check fit, keeping the same shape and angle as the original untill the cylinder locks in place just a bit before the hammer is at full cock, but does not bind when pulled back to full cock. You may also have to file the front of the hand to set protrusion, this should be copied from the old part, normally when te cyliner is open, or out, with hammer down, trigger at rest, the nose of the hand normally is flush with the recoil shield sitting in it's slot, although some revolvers have a spring behind the hand and are supposed to protrude, make sure you check how the original part sits. Then make sure you don't have any burrs, oil it and reassemble.

If you go too far, where the hammer reaches full cock before the cylinder is locked, then you have to get another hand and start over. It takes a little bit to get decent at where and how much to file, and some hammerless and DA revolvers can be tricky because there is no distinct full cock notch, only a release point that can be hard to get right, and you may have to check function with the sideplate off, or if it uses a trigger group that comes out the bottom, like Rugers, then you have to file it little by little and reassemble the whole thing until the cylinder locks up, and then the sear breaks without binding. Sometimes it helps to feel the little bit of roational play in the cylinder by turning it back and forth lightly once it locks up, if the hand is too long, and it is binding, but still has enough flex to reach full cock, or for a DA sear to release, the you will feel it tighten up right as the trigger breaks, if this is the case, you are close, but need to file just a hair bit more off. When all is done right, the hand should push the cylinder around and engage the cylinder stop, then reach full cock, and then the hammer should drop without the hand putting pressure on the cylinder. In some DA/SA revolvers this can be tough to get it exact, being there are 2 full cock positions, the position the hammer sits at when manually cocked in SA mode, and the lower release position in DA mode ,test with both, although normally once the hand is fit for SA mode, it works fine in DA mode, but sometimes if it is just tight barely tight enough to work fine in SA mode, it might be a little short and not lock up properly in DA mode.

I have bought old broken, but nice revolvers, and about half the time the problem has been as simple as fixing a timing issue, and for the time involved in fitting a $5 part, you can save yourself a couple hundred off of the value of the gun, and in the case of most Colt style capand ball revolvers(Walker, dragoon, 1851Navy and 1860 Army and repros) the tiny hand spring is easily broken, becomes brittle with use, and will prevent the revolver from advancing, even though the hand still is timed right, the only way to replace the spring is with the hand, and you have to fit the part, although luckily spares are cheap, and can be pre-fitted so WHEN one breaks you can simply throw another hand in the revolver and be back up and running in minutes, instead of days or weeks.

This is the only pic I have of a hand, it is from an 1860 Army repro(see the spring), but the basic idea is the same reguardless of model.

 

[novus collectus]

Zoostation, I am not sure who had the first patent, but most are not copies of S&W IMO, they have too many features which are too different. There were some Spanish and I think Belgian clones that copied everything, but revolvers like IJ and H&A had things S&W did not. For instance the IJ had the transfer bar ("hammer to hammer") and on some models the trigger safety.

 

[novus collectus]

Basically you have to fit a new hand to it, assuming the ratchet plate on the ejector or cylinder is still in good shape. Most manufacturers use softer metal for the hand so it wears before the ratchet does. Use your old hand as a guide to get the shape right, and file it down to about .020" longer than the part you are replacing, put the new hand in, and see where the cylinder locks up with the stop, although some hands come just about perfectly fit already, and need only minor if any fitting, others come quite a bit longer. Normally it will lock, and the hamer can be drawn back about 3/4 of the way to full cock before it stats to bind, don't force it back. Then pull the hand back out, and file it a little at a time, reinstalling it to check fit, keeping the same shape and angle as the original untill the cylinder locks in place just a bit before the hammer is at full cock, but does not bind when pulled back to full cock. You may also have to file the front of the hand to set protrusion, this should be copied from the old part, normally when te cyliner is open, or out, with hammer down, trigger at rest, the nose of the hand normally is flush with the recoil shield sitting in it's slot, although some revolvers have a spring behind the hand and are supposed to protrude, make sure you check how the original part sits. Then make sure you don't have any burrs, oil it and reassemble.

If you go too far, where the hammer reaches full cock before the cylinder is locked, then you have to get another hand and start over. It takes a little bit to get decent at where and how much to file, and some hammerless and DA revolvers can be tricky because there is no distinct full cock notch, only a release point that can be hard to get right, and you may have to check function with the sideplate off, or if it uses a trigger group that comes out the bottom, like Rugers, then you have to file it little by little and reassemble the whole thing until the cylinder locks up, and then the sear breaks without binding. Sometimes it helps to feel the little bit of roational play in the cylinder by turning it back and forth lightly once it locks up, if the hand is too long, and it is binding, but still has enough flex to reach full cock, or for a DA sear to release, the you will feel it tighten up right as the trigger breaks, if this is the case, you are close, but need to file just a hair bit more off. When all is done right, the hand should push the cylinder around and engage the cylinder stop, then reach full cock, and then the hammer should drop without the hand putting pressure on the cylinder. In some DA/SA revolvers this can be tough to get it exact, being there are 2 full cock positions, the position the hammer sits at when manually cocked in SA mode, and the lower release position in DA mode ,test with both, although normally once the hand is fit for SA mode, it works fine in DA mode, but sometimes if it is just tight barely tight enough to work fine in SA mode, it might be a little short and not lock up properly in DA mode.

I have bought old broken, but nice revolvers, and about half the time the problem has been as simple as fixing a timing issue, and for the time involved in fitting a $5 part, you can save yourself a couple hundred off of the value of the gun, and in the case of most Colt style capand ball revolvers(Walker, dragoon, 1851Navy and 1860 Army and repros) the tiny hand spring is easily broken, becomes brittle with use, and will prevent the revolver from advancing, even though the hand still is timed right, the only way to replace the spring is with the hand, and you have to fit the part, although luckily spares are cheap, and can be pre-fitted so WHEN one breaks you can simply throw another hand in the revolver and be back up and running in minutes, instead of days or weeks.

This is the only pic I have of a hand, it is from an 1860 Army repro(see the spring), but the basic idea is the same reguardless of model.
View attachment 9552

Hmm, a few of them are hammerless and a few are DAO (missing parts for the SA).

Looks like I have to start looking for some hands.

 

[novus collectus]

Actually, how much would it cost to have a gunsmith do this for me? I figure by the time I buy the tools and buy a few parts I may screw up I might have just saved myself time and headache having it done by a pro.

 

[novus collectus]

I realize any repairs are going to cost me more than the guns cost me, but I like the idea of having more properly functioning antiques than I have now.

 

[GNLaFrance]

Here's a place to look for and ask for advice: Yesterday's Weapons Forum

Here's a place to find parts: Bob's Gun Parts

Hope these help.

 

[novus collectus]

Here's a place to look for and ask for advice: Yesterday's Weapons Forum

Here's a place to find parts: Bob's Gun Parts

Hope these help.

Thanks.

Yeah, I saw Bob's earlier, but he lists the hand as "old top break hand" and I have no idea if this means that they use the same hand for all calibers and models or not. That could be $15 spent just to find out.

 

[GNLaFrance]

Thanks.

De rien.

Yeah, I saw Bob's earlier, but he lists the hand as "old top break hand" and I have no idea if this means that they use the same hand for all calibers and models or not. That could be $15 spent just to find out.

Send him an e-mail describing the revolver(s) and he'll get back to you, he answers pretty quickly.

 

[novus collectus]

De rien.



Send him an e-mail describing the revolver(s) and he'll get back to you, he answers pretty quickly.

Good to know.

 

[novus collectus]

Here's a place to look for and ask for advice: Yesterday's Weapons Forum

Here's a place to find parts: Bob's Gun Parts

Hope these help.

YOu are right, Bob's responded quickly. It seems as if the hand he has on his page will not fit my revolvers though.

 

[GNLaFrance]

You are right, Bob's responded quickly. It seems as if the hand he has on his page will not fit my revolvers though.

Bummer.

But don't give up, there are lots of collectors who acquire and repair old top breaks. Keep looking around. I'll give you a holler if I find a place with good info.

 

[alucard0822]

YOu are right, Bob's responded quickly. It seems as if the hand he has on his page will not fit my revolvers though.

might have to make it, which as gun parts go is not terribly hard to do in many cases, just need a peice of metal the right thickness, cut out the rough shape, drill a hole, press and braze in a pin, then file it to the right shape.

 

[novus collectus]

Is it possible to just add metal to the existing hand?

 

[novus collectus]

Bummer.

But don't give up, there are lots of collectors who acquire and repair old top breaks. Keep looking around. I'll give you a holler if I find a place with good info.

Since I doubt I will stop buying IJs anytime soon, I will have plenty more to work on.