first handgun purchase in MD, suggestions?

[Ethan83]

I'll also second a GP100. If you want the wifey to handle it and she has smaller hands, you might look at the smaller frame SP-101. S&W equivalents would be a 686 in a full size frame, or a model 60 in a smaller J frame. I don't have much experience with the S&Ws, but the Rugers are plenty nice, and I'm not sure what could or would justify the vastly greater expense of the S&Ws.

Tokarevs are great for the reasons mentioned, but the extreme penetration might be a drawback if you live in an apartment, have children in bedrooms, etc. If you live by yourself or with just your spouse in the middle of nowhere, go for all the penetration you want. Hell, use a short rifle.

It's expensive as hell, but just gonna throw it out there - S&W 625. It's a six shot, full size revolver but is chambered for .45ACP (must be loaded with moon clips AFAIK). Fantastic round without all the penetration, bang, and flash of say a full power .357, but in an ultra solid and reliable revolver platform. I believe this is what Jerry Miculek set his speed shooting records with; I suspect with a big revolver you might be able to get back on target quicker than a .357. Of course this all assumes you want to have that serious of a cartridge for HD (which is all fine and good) when a .38 should work absolutely fine anyway.

 

[g19fanatic]

I'll also second a GP100. If you want the wifey to handle it and she has smaller hands, you might look at the smaller frame SP-101. S&W equivalents would be a 686 in a full size frame, or a model 60 in a smaller J frame. I don't have much experience with the S&Ws, but the Rugers are plenty nice, and I'm not sure what could or would justify the vastly greater expense of the S&Ws.

Tokarevs are great for the reasons mentioned, but the extreme penetration might be a drawback if you live in an apartment, have children in bedrooms, etc. If you live by yourself or with just your spouse in the middle of nowhere, go for all the penetration you want. Hell, use a short rifle.

It's expensive as hell, but just gonna throw it out there - S&W 625. It's a six shot, full size revolver but is chambered for .45ACP (must be loaded with moon clips AFAIK). Fantastic round without all the penetration, bang, and flash of say a full power .357, but in an ultra solid and reliable revolver platform. I believe this is what Jerry Miculek set his speed shooting records with; I suspect with a big revolver you might be able to get back on target quicker than a .357. Of course this all assumes you want to have that serious of a cartridge for HD (which is all fine and good) when a .38 should work absolutely fine anyway.

i keep seeing the same trend in all of the replies, the S&Ws are nice but overpriced for what you get. I have arbitrarily set my budget as above (450-500) and in all honesty could probably go to 700-800 if needed/wanted but would like to keep it down as much as possible.

Penetration might be an issue as we have neighbors to either side but there are plenty of walls (depending on the situation)...

 

[mrozowjj]

First of all, get rid of the bird shot... that's a joke. It is NOT a home defense load, buckshot or slugs are what you should be running in a shotgun for home defense unless you want to just piss the determined criminal off or leave him alive to sue you later.

Dear god listen to this man. Bird shot is only suitable for birds. For people you must use buck shot or slugs to be effective.

 

[Chaunsey]

Dear god listen to this man. Bird shot is only suitable for birds. For people you must use buck shot or slugs to be effective.

i think there would be a lot less confusion if someone sold "people shot", if someone is shopping for ammo, they'll look at the boxes and say "hmm, not shooting birds, and not shooting bucks...what to pick...aha! people shot, thats what i need".

would make the whole thing much simpler for everyone, and as an added benefit it would get the anti's panties in a bunch.

 

[g19fanatic]

@mrozowjj
will do this weekend. As i said here, i just haven't really had the chance to get some buck (only had bird due to skeet shooting and recently moving into my house...)

@Chaunsey
now that'd be something interesting on the evening news... "XXX store now selling 'People Shot' due to the ineffective stopping power of 'bird' shot against home invaders"

 

[Deapsee]

people shot

The last time I was in xxx store all they had was money shot...

 

[Minuteman]

Perhaps my favorite revolvers today, and everyday for the last 20 or so years.

GP100, 4" Stainless, original grips, classic!

 

[Lostfantum]

Welcome to the forum. My vote goes for the Ruger GP100, my 17 year old daughter shoots mine.

 

[g19fanatic]

The last time I was in xxx store all they had was money shot...

HAH and i just realized that was what i wrote... not exactly what i meant

Perhaps my favorite revolvers today, and everyday for the last 20 or so years.

GP100, 4" Stainless, original grips, classic!

the more i look at this handgun... the more i want it...

Welcome to the forum. My vote goes for the Ruger GP100, my 17 year old daughter shoots mine.

exactly what my wife would enjoy shooting


thanks for the help guys

 

[Dead Eye]

Perhaps my favorite revolvers today, and everyday for the last 20 or so years.

GP100, 4" Stainless, original grips, classic!

Yes, I prefer the stainless, but I thought it was a budget issue. I own the 6" version and love it!

 

[mbz300sdl]

Perhaps my favorite revolvers today, and everyday for the last 20 or so years.

GP100, 4" Stainless, original grips, classic!

I love those grips! That's the one's on my dad's GP first .357 I ever shot but his is a 6" I was 13 and hitting 9in target at 100 yards every time.

 

[Markp]

The catch in SOMD is finding a dealer to unequovically endorse, that also stocks a wide variety of guns , to enclude a selection of revolvers . Our industry partners generally have great service and reasonal prices, but in the area tend to have smaller instock inventories .
I understand and excpect the bottomfeeder fans to extol the virtues of semi autos, but a Tok ? 7.62 x 25 would be extremly poor choice for SD/ HD .

Why is 7.62x25 any less of a good choice when compared to a .357 Magnum?

Both are relatively high velocity rounds, although the smaller diameter 7.62x25 is more likely to defeat body armor. With between 400-500 ft/lbs of force, it is certainly lethal. S&B's factory ball ammo is rated at 500 ft/lbs of force. You can get hot home defense loads with hollow points or fragmented bullets. Magsafe makes a pre-fragmented home defense load with a 52 grain bullet moving at 2120 ft/sec developing just over 500 ft/lbs of force and has an excellent reputation for producing defense ammo.

In fact, the Magsafe rounds for the .357 are LESS powerful then the ones for the Tokarev.

Are there downsides to the Tokarev in a home defense situation, absolutely, as this bullet is extremely good at penetrating barriers. The solution is to use a fragmenting round like the Magsafe round or to accept that the penetration can work both for and against you. Personally, I like the fact that this round will go through things. I understand the risks associated with that and in the environment I live in, it makes sense for me.

The Tokarev is plenty accurate, so I don't see a problem there, but I will concede that mag changes are less quick than you'll find with most modern pistols... If I have to swap mags in a HD/SD situation, I have the wrong weapon in my hand to begin with. Even so, I still have 50% more ammo than the guy with the .357 and can reload it faster than a revolver.

If I have missed anything, please add it... I would like to hear why it's such a bad choice, perhaps I am overlooking some glaring fault.

Mark

 

[Markp]

i think there would be a lot less confusion if someone sold "people shot", if someone is shopping for ammo, they'll look at the boxes and say "hmm, not shooting birds, and not shooting bucks...what to pick...aha! people shot, thats what i need".

would make the whole thing much simpler for everyone, and as an added benefit it would get the anti's panties in a bunch.

http://www.ddupleks.lv/EN/articles/show/dupo_20_news <- People Shot... when you care to send the very best.

 

[Chaunsey]

Why is 7.62x25 any less of a good choice when compared to a .357 Magnum?

Both are relatively high velocity rounds, although the smaller diameter 7.62x25 is more likely to defeat body armor. With between 400-500 ft/lbs of force, it is certainly lethal. S&B's factory ball ammo is rated at 500 ft/lbs of force. You can get hot home defense loads with hollow points or fragmented bullets. Magsafe makes an excellent pre-fragmented home defense load with a 52 grain bullet moving at 2120 ft/sec developing just over 500 ft/lbs of force.

In fact, the Magsafe rounds for the .357 are LESS powerful then the ones for the Tokarev.

Are there downsides to the Tokarev in a home defense situation, absolutely, as this bullet is extremely good at penetrating barriers. The solution is to use a fragmenting round like the Magsafe round or to accept that the penetration can work both for and against you. Personally, I like the fact that this round will go through things. I understand the risks associated with that and in the environment I live in, it makes sense for me.

The Tokarev is plenty accurate, so I don't see a problem there, but I will concede that mag changes are less quick than you'll find with most modern pistols... If I have to swap mags in a HD/SD situation, I have the wrong weapon in my hand to begin with. Even so, I still have 50% more ammo than the guy with the .357 and can reload it faster than a revolver.

If I have missed anything, please add it... I would like to hear why it's such a bad choice, perhaps I am overlooking some glaring fault.

Mark

i think there are a few reasons its not a great choice.

it has relatively poor sights, mag changes are slow, it is single stack, if im gonna go with a semi auto for home defense its probably gonna hold a lot more than 8 rounds. and while it is a rugged pistol overall, the fact is the design is over 70 years old and tends to have more hiccups than a quality modern pistol, especially when you add in the factor that it was no designed for hollowpoint rounds and while i dont have any experience using them myself, i have to wonder how reliable it is going to be with hollowpoints.

as well, a lot of people find the grip angle strange, so i think it is less likely to be a comfortable choice for his wife, but that is a subjective issue , some people like some things others dont. you also cannot easily mount lights or lasers on a tokarev. basically, if you want an absolutely reliable, and absolutely simple and safe gun, that is a revolver. if you're more experienced and want the speed, mag capacity tactical flexibility etc of a modern semi auto, then you probably want a modern semi auto. i just dont see a reason to get something that is in between and has the cons of both sides, without most of the benefits of both sides.

i will absolutely agree with you however on the round, 7.62x25 is a little powerhouse of a round.

now im not bashing the tokarev, i have one, want more and love them, its just not something i would recommend for HD and esoecially not concealed carry, though you certainly could do worse for both purposes too. in my opinion if you want a cheap surplus gun for a cheap HD gun, the CZ-82 is much more suitable for the role, granted it doesnt have the punch of the 7.62x25.

http://www.ddupleks.lv/EN/articles/show/dupo_20_news <- People Shot... when you care to send the very best.

it needs to say it on the box though, much more effective that way.

 

[Markp]

i think there are a few reasons its not a great choice.

it has relatively poor sights, mag changes are slow, it is single stack, if im gonna go with a semi auto for home defense its probably gonna hold a lot more than 8 rounds.

The Yugo holds 9 rounds, but I agree, it is limited. However when compared to the .357, it's still more than 6 rounds by 50%.

Fair criticism on the sights, they do suck compared to most modern semi-auto's. There are no known replacement sights, but that is one thing this pistol desperately needs. If the gun has one Achilles heal, this is it. Painting the front sight does help some though.

and while it is a rugged pistol overall, the fact is the design is over 70 years old and tends to have more hiccups than a quality modern pistol, especially when you add in the factor that it was no designed for hollowpoint rounds and while i dont have any experience using them myself, i have to wonder how reliable it is going to be with hollowpoints.

LOL, the 1911 is more than 70 years old, this doesn't make it an obsolete design. The age of the design has nothing to do with anything. The Tokarev certainly could be less reliable, but it doesn't have to be. I have only fired FMJ in mine, but in over a 1000 rounds I have not had a FTF, FTE, or any other malfunction in my Polish TTC.

I have had new guns that have been less reliable, my Springfield .45 ultra-compact comes to mind. I would have been better using it as a club than as a gun. I think we agree that it is absolutely imperative that regardless of the weapon you select for home defense, you want to really put it to the test and verify that it will be reliable with the ammunition that you are going to fire.

as well, a lot of people find the grip angle strange, so i think it is less likely to be a comfortable choice for his wife, but that is a subjective issue , some people like some things others dont.

Now this is a fair criticism. I believe that the ergonomics of the Tokarev lack something to be desired and even I find the grip angle strange. Regarding the wife test, my wife has very small hands and the single stack mag is a plus. Still she prefers her SIG P6 over the Tokarev and that P6 is what is by her pillow at night. The P6 won't shoot hollowpoints, but she has excellent shot placement and I don't think I'd want to be on the wrong side of her gun.

you also cannot easily mount lights or lasers on a tokarev. basically, if you want an absolutely reliable, and absolutely simple and safe gun, that is a revolver.

Once again, I think this is fair criticism. Although a laser sight does exist for the Tokarev, I am not sure of it's quality. Revolvers are absolutely reliable when compared to semi-autos in general, but I do have a 1000+ rounds without a single failure in my TTC and that's using primarily old crappy 1950's ammo from Poland. I can't say the same about my CZ-52, which does sometimes fail to fire the hard primer ammo from Poland. I can't agree with you more about reliability, whatever gun you decide to go with has to be 100% dead reliable for home defense.

if you're more experienced and want the speed, mag capacity tactical flexibility etc of a modern semi auto, then you probably want a modern semi auto. i just dont see a reason to get something that is in between and has the cons of both sides, without most of the benefits of both sides.

Well the one reason that I believe it's a good choice is that the ammo is cheap and available. This means more practice, more practice means better shot placement and higher lethality. This is my one reason for this particular weapon. If you've put a few thousand rounds of practice under your belt, and have seriously worked on your shooting, you will reflexively shoot better. I think that you make a reasonable point here, but one of the drivers for the OP was cost. The OP could purchase 2 TTC's and 2400 rounds of ammunition to practice with for less than the cost of one .357 revolver. I would be far more fearful of the practiced shot than the person who has put less than 100 rounds through a double action revolver that is far trickier to shoot well. Trigger pull is one critical advantage that the single action semi-auto offers.

i will absolutely agree with you however on the round, 7.62x25 is a little powerhouse of a round.

now im not bashing the tokarev, i have one, want more and love them, its just not something i would recommend for HD and esoecially not concealed carry, though you certainly could do worse for both purposes too. in my opinion if you want a cheap surplus gun for a cheap HD gun, the CZ-82 is much more suitable for the role, granted it doesnt have the punch of the 7.62x25.

I love my CZ-82, and sometimes rely on it as a carry weapon. Although, I will be the first to admit my 9mm Springfield XD is superior in every aspect. It doesn't make the CZ-82 unsuitable nor do I feel that my TTC is unsuitable, especially when considering price as a factor. I certainly would feel most comfortable in an urban environment with something capable of penetrating light cover, and for that the TTC excels. The somewhat anemic round in the CZ-82 is certainly sufficient for self-defense, but ammo cost is considerably higher.

So I think you've made some very good points and hopefully this discussion will be useful to the OP. I don't think he can go wrong with a revolver or a modern semi-auto, I just think that the person who practices regularly has a better chance of employing their weapon successfully and that was the main reason for my suggestion.

Mark

 

[Deapsee]

TTC?

The main drawback to using a Tokarev for HD is having to explain to the Officers that spraying Windex down the barrel is not some scheme to destroy evidence...

 

[g19fanatic]

@Markp, Chaunsey
Thanks for the lively and very educating discussion on the tokarev. After reading (and re-reading) your posts, i'm starting to be persuaded to go the cheap semi route. Mainly because of the ablility to buy 2 and 2krds for the price of the revolver... but i'm still not convinced yet...A lil more information about my shooting experiences...


Growing up (ever since I can really remember) I've been shooting firearms and hunting (mainly rifles and shotguns). Ever since I've been 12, when my father taught me to shoot (taught to respect much earlier...), I have been firing handguns.

My fathers owned a .38spl revolver (never remember the model... 4" barrel SS tho) and a Glock 22. Throughout the years I was living at their house (up until college) I shot almost every single weekend. I worked and most of my extra spending money that I set aside in my budget (yes... i kept a budget while working in HS...) when right to ammo (through my father). I do not know how many rounds I put through both of those guns... but it must be in the thousands.... After a while, my brother was also interested in shooting and he started shooting with me. I enjoyed shooting both guns equally but he only really enjoyed the semi, so when we'd shoot... i'd mainly shoot the revolver and him the semi.

That being said, I'm pretty accurate with both of those guns (can reliable hit a small 6" x 6" metal plate at 75 yds...). This is where my .357 magnum choice is really stemming from. I'm at a point in my life where I want to start owning firearms (steady job, married, own a house... kid coming in a few yrs...) and i'm pretty biased i guess...

I intend to also get a Glock 19 as my second handgun (down the road a lil bit). During college, I put several thousand rounds through my friends g19 at a range and fell in love (2.5 yrs of him buying ammo ). The choice for the .357 over the g19 first is mainly because of the simplicity of point and pull for my wife (she likes the g19 too but enjoyed the .38spl at my 'rents house more.. never took the time to learn the mechanics of reloading a semi... I'd just load, put safety on and she did the shooting).

 

[Dead Eye]

The choice for the .357 over the g19 first is mainly because of the simplicity of point and pull for my wife.

That being the case, go to Wal-Mart and buy a Remington 870 Express, for a couple hundred bucks. Cut the barrel down to a 1/4" over the legal limit, load it with buck shot, and give that to the wife.

The buckshot will kill stop ANY human.

The bucksot won't penetrate walls like the higher powered rounds.

The wide pattern is point and shoot.

The MOST recognizeable sound IN THE WORLD, is the slide action of a shotgun. Chances are, she learns how to do that and criminal is ghost.

Then take what's left over, save a few more pennies, and go buy what you REALLY want.

 

[Chaunsey]

buck shot most certainly will penetrate walls, not as much as pistol rounds do, but not all that much less either, it will still go through several layers of drywall before stopping.


as well, while you dont have to aim too well at across the room distances, the pattern is not wide enough at close ranges to be any more point and shoot than a pistol or anything else.

within 5-10 yards the spread is no more than 2-3 inches.

you're not wrong, the spread is more than a bullet, and the penetration is less, but it should not be exaggerated, you must still use caution when firing indoors in regards to family members in other rooms etc, and you still have to aim your shots like any other firearm.

 

[Deapsee]

Practical tests

Her are some actual load tests:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ievbU3xIYGQ

Try not to snicker at the title of the video, pay special attention to the ballistics gel penetration of the frangible breaching rounds.