FFL's and FSA2013

[mrgnstrn]

First off, I must confess, I love loop holes. I love trying to figure out new ones. And every new regulation or change to regulations/guidelines creates opportunities for loopholes. It's my own personal way of coping with crappy laws...instead of crying.

Anyway, first, a few questions:

Are Maryland FFL's restricted by FSA2013 regulations as to what firearms they have within their stores ? By that I mean, can an FFL have within their stores items which are not legal within MD. For example, can Engage Arms in MD advertise an AK-47 for sale to a non-MD resident? And have that firearm on-site in their store? (taken as a hypothetical; I did not look to see if Engage Arms even has AK-47's for sale)
(Yes, I know that to ultimately consummate the sale, either the out-of-state resident would have to visit the store, or have it shipped to their own FFL in their state. That's not my question?)

Follow-up question:
Can the shop owner take those firearms to a range to test them?


If the answer to both is YES.....it seems like this new Presidential push to make more people get FFLs to sell a gun or two seems like a silver lining for us here in the Peoples Demokratic Republik of Marylandistan.


Here's what I mean: We all go out and get kitchen table FFLs, and all of the sudden, I get to have an AK-47 My "store" can "list for sale" an AK-47.
Right?

And I have to test it out every once in a while to make sure it still works....Right?

A range trip is a business expense, right?

The ATF comes to visit, and sees that I haven't sold any rifles that year. I just say "hey, pretty tough year in the economy, maybe next year will pick up."

OK, now poke holes in this idea.
ready, set, Go!

 

[dontpanic]

There are no more kitchen table FFLs.

Yes FFLs can have all rhe goodies we can't. If you have the right license yoou can even make and possess your own machine gun.

 

[clandestine]

They are not going to approve a bunch of 01 FFLs. What they want you to do is transfer guns using an 01 FFL Shop, thus a NICS Check and Paperwork Trail for ALL Sales.

Read between the lines...

And yes an 01 can have MD Banned Firearms and Magazines in their Inventory, they just cant sell them or offer them for sale to MD Residents.

 

[Muleskinner]

First off, I must confess, I love loop holes. I love trying to figure out new ones. And every new regulation or change to regulations/guidelines creates opportunities for loopholes. It's my own personal way of coping with crappy laws...instead of crying.

Anyway, first, a few questions:

Are Maryland FFL's restricted by FSA2013 regulations as to what firearms they have within their stores ? By that I mean, can an FFL have within their stores items which are not legal within MD. For example, can Engage Arms in MD advertise an AK-47 for sale to a non-MD resident? And have that firearm on-site in their store? (taken as a hypothetical; I did not look to see if Engage Arms even has AK-47's for sale)
(Yes, I know that to ultimately consummate the sale, either the out-of-state resident would have to visit the store, or have it shipped to their own FFL in their state. That's not my question?)

Follow-up question:
Can the shop owner take those firearms to a range to test them?


If the answer to both is YES.....it seems like this new Presidential push to make more people get FFLs to sell a gun or two seems like a silver lining for us here in the Peoples Demokratic Republik of Marylandistan.


Here's what I mean: We all go out and get kitchen table FFLs, and all of the sudden, I get to have an AK-47 My "store" can "list for sale" an AK-47.
Right?

And I have to test it out every once in a while to make sure it still works....Right?

A range trip is a business expense, right?

The ATF comes to visit, and sees that I haven't sold any rifles that year. I just say "hey, pretty tough year in the economy, maybe next year will pick up."

OK, now poke holes in this idea.
ready, set, Go!

Bob Arthur at Arthur's Shooters Supply frequently has firearms in his store advertised for NON MARYLAND RESIDENTS ONLY..

 

[tkd4life]

I like the way you think. And you can hold on to that AK for a really really long time, because it is so hard to sell in a state that has banned the sale of said item. Kind of brilliant if you ask me. Now will the ATF grant all FFLS, that people are going to request to sell a shot gun to billy bob, I highly doubt it.

 

[mrgnstrn]

They are not going to approve a bunch of 01 FFLs. What they want you to do is transfer guns using an 01 FFL Shop, thus a NICS Check and Paperwork Trail for ALL Sales.

Read between the lines...

And yes an 01 can have MD Banned Firearms and Magazines in their Inventory, they just cant sell them or offer them for sale to MD Residents.

I like the way you think. And you can hold on to that AK for a really really long time, because it is so hard to sell in a state that has banned the sale of said item. Kind of brilliant if you ask me. Now will the ATF grant all FFLS, that people are going to request to sell a shot gun to billy bob, I highly doubt it.

There are no more kitchen table FFLs.

Yes FFLs can have all rhe goodies we can't. If you have the right license yoou can even make and possess your own machine gun.

Hey, I never said this was probable, or even practical.

I know what the "progressives" want. I get it; I can read the lines and between the lines.

.....but it would sure be nice!

-m

 

[Pinecone]

Back in the early 90s, they shut down the kitchen table FFLs by requiring a location zoned for business use, and a business license and insurance.

Go for it.

And, they are NOT shutting down person to person sales, they are tightening up those skirting the rules by selling as a business, but without an FFL.

We have all seen the "individual," not a dealer, with a table with a number of firearms at the gun show, and the next show, and the next show. THAT is who they are going after.

 

[stringer bell]

well here is a question, now with the recent EO's aimed directly at small time( couple guns of year) dealers, who from time to time sell a firearm for profit at a gun show or internet needing a FFL,

why wouldn't that reopen the floodgates for kitchen table FFL's

 

[RoadDawg]

Back in the early 90s, they shut down the kitchen table FFLs by requiring a location zoned for business use, and a business license and insurance.

Go for it.

And, they are NOT shutting down person to person sales, they are tightening up those skirting the rules by selling as a business, but without an FFL.

We have all seen the "individual," not a dealer, with a table with a number of firearms at the gun show, and the next show, and the next show. THAT is who they are going after.

^^^^^^^^ this

well here is a question, now with the recent EO's aimed directly at small time( couple guns of year) dealers, who from time to time sell a firearm for profit at a gun show or internet needing a FFL,

why wouldn't that reopen the floodgates for kitchen table FFL's

See above...

 

[Brooklyn]

Back in the early 90s, they shut down the kitchen table FFLs by requiring a location zoned for business use, and a business license and insurance.

Go for it.

And, they are NOT shutting down person to person sales, they are tightening up those skirting the rules by selling as a business, but without an FFL.

We have all seen the "individual," not a dealer, with a table with a number of firearms at the gun show, and the next show, and the next show. THAT is who they are going after.

No.. They are attempting to broaden the definition of doing business in firearms is such a way as to still allow all the other invented requirements to hold. And it's not going to be easy.

Federal law does not require any of that. It requires the intention to do business in Firearms.. Nothing more..

This is a lawsuit in the making.. BTW I have never seen such a 'dealer,'..nor has anyone I know. But if I did..the show promoter is the first one I would inform.. Not the internet.

 

[Pinecone]

I was discussing this at a local gun shop yesterday. And everyone there has seen such sellers.

The issue is, these people DO exist, and they used to have FFLs. But around 94-95, the ATF, on orders from above, started hassling these kitchen table FFLs. People who sold guns, but did so only at shows. No shop.

They started requiring business zoning and claiming the licensees were doing business out of their homes. The number of FFLs dropped significantly.

And since then, those doing business like this were sort of ignored.

But this means, a lot of those people will need to have an FFL (which they used to have), but if they cannot get one, they have a lawsuit. Can't have it both ways, require a license, then not give the license.

Heck, they push this, we should ALL apply for an FFL.

 

[RoadDawg]

I was discussing this at a local gun shop yesterday. And everyone there has seen such sellers.

The issue is, these people DO exist, and they used to have FFLs. But around 94-95, the ATF, on orders from above, started hassling these kitchen table FFLs. People who sold guns, but did so only at shows. No shop.

They started requiring business zoning and claiming the licensees were doing business out of their homes. The number of FFLs dropped significantly.

And since then, those doing business like this were sort of ignored.

But this means, a lot of those people will need to have an FFL (which they used to have), but if they cannot get one, they have a lawsuit. Can't have it both ways, require a license, then not give the license.

Heck, they push this, we should ALL apply for an FFL.

No thanks... I like my COTUS 4A.

 

[Boom Boom]

well here is a question, now with the recent EO's aimed directly at small time( couple guns of year) dealers, who from time to time sell a firearm for profit at a gun show or internet needing a FFL,

why wouldn't that reopen the floodgates for kitchen table FFL's

Hate to say it but you're been naive. The point of the EAs is to pressure/bully all private sales through FFL dealers under vague threat of arrest.

Don't expect to see kitchen table FFLs anytime soon. ATF is having none of it. Been that way a long time and likely to stay that way unless we get radical pro-2A changes to the SCOTUS.

 

[Pinecone]

Class action suit against ATF over not issuing kitchen table FFLs but requiring an FFL to sell.